Neighbors From Alternate Universes

Tags

challenge level, combat, companions, Divinity: Original Sin, plot, story, XP

Spoilers for Hunter’s Edge and some other Phantom Forest locations in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Well, levels still matter.

Got to level 17 in Hunter’s Edge there, fighting side by side with friendly maniacs. And, upon returning to the phantom forest last night, that fight with the zombies and shit that kept killing me was cake. Cake, I say! Maybe it was the gear, but there was certainly a difference.

XP. You always get it when you don’t need it.

T SHIRT!!!

Anyway, did that, talked to a bunch of creepy assed tree people, got into a fight with a bunch of ghostly poachers who I WOULD have beat if I hadn’t lost track of their damn boar, and if they hadn’t been clued into the rule that if Scarlett and Roderick both die I lose (SHOOT BAIRDOTR FOR FUCK’S SAKE!). So I skirted around them upon reloading, found the Cassandra temple thingy there, it tells me I can’t get it unless I’m dead, and I’m not dead, and all that. So I putzed around trying to find a trick and found no trick. At least I disabled all the sentries so I don’t have to listen to them being all “INTRUDER SPIED!” even though I disabled their damn lava things.

And then I called it a day and made dinner.

Did I miss a trick? Have you gotten in there? Cuz I dunno.

I’m curious about this, you see. You know that I’m still going with “death” being “cured.” (I so wish you had done Jahan’s deal!) “Death” means “getting sane.” So having to be “dead?” Hmm.

Anyway, couldn’t figure it out last night. You?

Feminina:

We were just puttering around the Phantom Forest fighting those ghosts yesterday! Against all odds, are we back in the same place at the same time?

We’ve only poked around the edges of the temple as well. We’re kind of thinking that the rune stone we got from Balberith’s corpse will allow us to enter even though we’re not dead (the spirit made it sound as if that were the case), but we haven’t found a way in yet either, so we haven’t actually tried that out.

Did you meet Cassandra herself?

Butch:

Ah, man! I still haven’t killed Barbereth! Just heard Jahan’s monologue and died. He’s level 19! He was what got me the “You best flee” prompt.

I don’t think this was the main source temple thingy. This was just a little square bit with four sentinels with lava who were easy to get by, and a lever that didn’t do much cuz I’m not dead. I got the sense from the rune stone thingy was to get into the main, end game, meet Leandra source temple. This seems to be the Cassandra side quest bit. Or something. It certainly doesn’t LOOK all main endgame etc.

And no, I have not met Cassandra herself. I sorta thought she’d be past this “gotta be dead” lever. She isn’t?

Must poke around more.

If you’re at that square, sentinel lever place, we are standing in exactly the same spot.

No. Way.

Feminina:

OK, we’re not EXACTLY there. We’re around the corner from that wall where there’s a big weird-looking statue made of branches or something, and if you step on the trapped panels in the floor around it you instantly burn to ash.

I accidentally discovered a trick for that, if you need any spoilery mechanical tips.

Oh, and yeah, good point, this isn’t the end-game temple, is it? And that IS the one the rune stone was about. Hm. So we have to figure out how to get into a place we have to be dead to get into.

My first thought was to summon an undead soldier and send him in, but they last such a short time outside of combat (or inside of combat, but it seems longer inside). Unlikely we’d have time to send one in to do…whatever.

Maybe Jahan is technically dead and we can send him in?

Maybe WE’RE technically dead and can walk in ourselves but will have to leave our companions. I mean, we know there’s a lot that’s weird about the PCs. Maybe we’re not actually alive, strictly speaking.

Hm. First we’ve got to find the door.

Butch:

That we do. Indeed, the log said “This puts us in a bit of a pickle….” Yes, yes it does.

HA! I did that, too! Didn’t work. I even had Bairdotr stand right by the lever, and pull it right away, and nada. Anyway, I’m not sure what I’d’ve done. Can’t give him the pyramid.

Oooo! Didn’t think of Jahan.

And on Jahan and pyramids, forgot to tell you: He did NOT like the pyramids. He got ALL about demons and that’s demon shit (paraphrasing) and it was evil and all sorts of shit. Which was kinda surprising. Like, dude, they haven’t given me any trouble….they’re just a game mechanic, right?

But, well, I got the sense that the circle there with the lever WAS the door. Cuz it was when I pulled the lever that a) all the dead stuff on top of it disappeared and b) Scarlett was all “I guess I have to be dead” (paraphrasing) and the log updated. So I think we have to be standing there, pull the lever, while, somehow, dead.

It’s that last bit that’s tricky…..

And where you are… Yeah. Uh….haven’t found that. At all.

But I can’t wait. Ash. Great.

Do they also annoyingly say “INTRUDER SPIED” over and over?

Feminina:

Miraculously, no–this one does not say that. But it’s right around in that same area. You’ll find it soon. We’re probably about 50 feet apart, in-game.

We should make our characters wave. “Hi alternate selves!”

Butch:

That would be kinda awesome. Your Scarlett would be all “I’m SO much hotter in his game” and she’d be sad.

That INTRUDER SPIED stuff was both annoying and silly once I disarmed the traps. Then they just kept looking at me, sternly saying that, and doing nothing. “Yeah, yeah. I see you seeing me! You can stop now!”

Feminina:

Ah, see, I only know we have to be dead because one of the tree corpses said so. Also someone else that we ran into that you’ll undoubtedly run into soon enough.

We haven’t disarmed the lava yet…we walked past it when we first got to the Phantom Forest, went around, talked to people, and were on our way back to check out the lava steps again when we got to this trap-floor branch-statue place first.

But it is right around the corner. We’ll be there soon.

Butch:

Ah. Well, spoiler. You have to be dead. And there’s a lever.

One of the great mysteries: Remember WAAAAAAY back in that cave? The levers and the pipes? In Cyseal?

We’ll never know.

Feminina:

Levers! You have spoiled the discovery of the lever! That’s it, I’m not playing this game anymore.

Butch:

It’s quite a lever.

You can pull it.

Feminina:

Oh, well, if you can PULL it…fine, I’ll keep playing.

Butch:

Best kind of lever, really.

There’s even a couple of buttons. You can push those.

Feminina:

Amazing! I’m so there!

Butch:

If Wolgraff could talk, he’d probably be saying “Like, guys, can one of you learn the invisibility trick? I mean, happy to do it, but it’s kinda stressful, all this ‘get past the deadly lava trap before it counts down from five.’ I have other skills, you know.”

To which Scarlett would say “Dude, until you learn not to drive your bomb exoskeleton in such a way that it doesn’t draw an attack of opportunity when it’s right next to all of us, we’ll talk about your other skills. In the meantime, get in there.”

Feminina:

Yeah, that bomb skeleton is an awesome but dangerous trick. It pops into existence so CLOSE! We’ve all been burned more than once by it getting hit while it was still right next to us.

But when it works out, it’s so satisfying!

Bomb toddles up to some monster, stands there invitingly. Monster hits it. BOOM.

Is there anything more delightful?

I actually have the invisibility trick, but Wolgraff’s lasts longer, so it’s still on him.

Butch:

Plus, the little laugh it makes is truly, truly awesome. Such a wonderful sound effect. You generally don’t notice that sort of thing, but isn’t that just perfect?

Feminina:

Uh…probably? I hadn’t noticed.

You know me so well.

Butch:

That insane “Hee hee. hee hee hee.”

Frankly, it’s how I feel inside when using the thing vocalized.

Feminina:

Oh right, that. Just its normal noise. I thought maybe I’d missed some specific “I’m exploding now!” noise.

I wouldn’t be surprised. Missing noises is what I do.

Butch:

Well, played some.

Met Cassandra, found the mute boar that made Wolgraff all “MY QUEST!” Did you meet him? Killed a couple of void demons which made me feel good about myself. Didn’t kill the ghost poachers which didn’t make me feel good about myself. Discovered a waypoint so at least I can go shopping and come back. Failed entirely to find a way into the Cassandra gotta be dead place, but I figure that’s how to make her vulnerable. Found a bigassed head that spoke in tongues, and learned that I need a relic to talk to same. Have no relic. You find that?

I THINK I found the step on lava bit that you mentioned. Is it behind gates? Gates that are, at least for me, very much locked? Cuz they locked. I did see little plates under pictures of fire, but they were on the other side of said locked gates.

Basically, met Cassandra, found a head. I’m starting to think I really, really have to kill that demon to do much of anything. Though it sure feels like I should be able to do Cassandra/tomb/all that shit before Barberith. Cassandra is level 18 (once I can hit her) and Barberith is 19, and the gotta be dead temple is closer to the entrance than the abandoned shack.

So we’re missing something.

And fuck if I know about the big head. It seemed to be the same language as the weird shit by the Knight’s tomb in Hunter’s Edge.

Compare notes! Cuz I’m even more confused.

Feminina:

Big…head? OK, now I’M confused. I don’t remember a big head!

I also don’t remember having to go through any locked gates to reach the trapped area we’re near right now, although maybe something we did unlocked them…I guess?

Hm. Well, let’s both keep poking around and we’ll probably stumble onto whatever it is we’ve both missed.

As for Cassandra, yeah, interesting. And poor Arhu there in the cage, all “please don’t make me be human full time, that would be horrible!” Another crushing moral decision awaits. As soon as we find whatever that thing is that she wants, which may be a while.

We indeed met the mute pig, and then, because we love Wolgraff and care about his concerns, unlike you, you monster, we immediately followed up on it and went downhill in the direction indicated. At least Wolgraff will get to participate in the conclusion of his own story arc!–we vowed.

I shall not spoil what followed. You’ll get there. It’s 19th level, so maybe don’t go there immediately. We were 18, and it was a tough-ish fight, though we managed it on the second try. Levels matter!

Butch:

Dude. Big. Head. Indeed, “Titan head.” It’s a big, stone thing that looks like it fell off a really big statue. You can even see it on the map. You go up, it highlights, you hit use, it talks to you in gibberish, you say “I guess we need a relic.” It’s just a step north of the gotta be dead temple.

I’d tell you more, but I have no relic.

Well, were there iron gates? Cuz if there were, you have something that unlocks them. Likely the rune you took off Barberith. I do not have that.

Big. Head.

Might be useless, I dunno. No relic.

Oh, that wasn’t obvious? Cuz she was all “The spirit will know,” and you freed the spirit, right? Shit. More to do. Game is large.

Heh…I am a monster. Especially as I said “Yes! We shall charge forth and resolve your quest!” and then screwed up, went the wrong way, met Cassandra, and completely didn’t follow up at all.

GOD DAMN IT! I’m always the bridesmaid, aren’t I?

At least I’m a damn good looking bridesmaid.

Feminina:

Being good-looking is some consolation.

I think the spirit does know, it’s just that we haven’t been back to talk to the spirit since we met Cassandra. We had JUST been there trying unsuccessfully to provoke Jahan into recognizing the end of his story arc, and we kind of felt like “nah, don’t need to go back there again right this minute.”

There’s no waypoint nearby, and there are those exploding eyeball things along the way…it’s just a hassle to travel there, you know? Like going to the south shore. Meh. We’ll go. Eventually. After we find the Titan Head.

Which…I’m beginning to think we aren’t in the same area at all, except we have to be, because we’re talking about a lot of the same landmarks (ghost fight, Cassandra, lava steps) but not all of them.

Butch:

“Being good-looking is some consolation.”

Phenomenal T SHIRT!!!!!!

HA! “END YOUR DAMN STORY!”

Some people just won’t.

yes, the south shore. Which also has exploding eyes.

At least there’s a waypoint there by Wolgraff and Cassandra and the titan head. Still, I’ll go see if I can find the thing that’ll let us actually get something out of the titan head first.

I saw the lava things (I think) I just couldn’t get there. Pressure plates? Under signs with fire on them? In, like, a stone maze/courtyard kinda place? Void demons outside?

The titan head was one of those things you had to get close to to highlight (like the lever cave way back when) or you can totally miss it. I found it merely cuz I was hugging the wall, sneaking, trying not to die. It’s there, I promise.

Feminina:

Sneaking and trying not to die…that sounds like the Phantom Forest, all right.

Or the south shore.

Butch:

At least the void demons aren’t so hard. They freeze easy. XP!

Feminina:

XP! Love it. Maybe Jahan would open up if we brought him along to freeze demons.

Missed opportunity!

I mean, honestly, he’s basically told us his story at this point. Was king of noble land, scorned all ladies, met THE AWESOMEST lady, fell ill, summoned a demon to tell him why he was ill, demon revealed it was THE AWESOMEST lady (the horror!!!), made a deal with the demon to be cured but demon now has power over him, has been traveling the world for ages hunting demon.

And, as of the first thing he said to us when he joined, but which he himself has apparently forgotten, is now FREE! The demon’s hold is broken!

He just won’t stop brooding about it. Because he apparently can’t remember that his story is over. MOVE ON, dude.

Yeah, yeah, you’ve spent a millennium thinking about this one thing, but it’s done! Accept that! Pick a new hobby!

Although…put him in some heavy armor, and that brooding obsession with his dark and troubled past could make him VEEEEERY attractive. He’s a little more of a jerk than I generally like–I prefer brooding, angsty, mournful types to brooding, grumpy, snappish ones–but…there certainly aren’t any better options at the moment.

Off to increase his strength so he can wear plate mail.

Butch:

Yeeeessssss……he did say that, didn’t he? Yes….yes he did…..He did do that….

There is, of course, a wrinkle to that. That doubtless will have either a choice or a result based on things I don’t remember doing which I will confront when I go there intentionally and don’t die.

Wrinkle. There’s a wrinkle. That I’d spoil, but I don’t know how it ends cuz died. I’ll spoil when I don’t die.

There you go! See? He’s even bearded! You LOVE that! LOVE IT!

But remember when I said “I see how they can do sequels even if I’m right about Scarlett? At least got when he said “My Rivellon.” MY. And then doubled down: “A Rivellon you cannot see…can never see.” Which is completely consistent with people here having their own delusions, insane people talking, incorporating each other into their own delusionary worlds. And before you say “Wait, how can the sequel take place in Rivellon,” you can continue the metaphor of Rivellon=delusion just fine.

After all, the idea that Scarlett is nuts isn’t really the metaphor. The metaphor is Scarlett is Eve and Eve was nuts. That WANTING to stay in Eden, feeling punished for leaving Eden, that even considering that sin was bad and knowledge was bad was, well, nuts. That Eve should’ve been dancing the happy dance, and that Scarlett, who is crazy by “real world” standards, is really the one who’s right: Sin is good. Sin works. We should all embrace our own “insanity,” our own misconception that Eden is paradise. Rivellon’s more fun.

So you can take the “Rivellon’s a delusion” and apply that to any narrative where you’re putting a twist on any accepted real world concept and it would be good.

That said, I highly doubt that we’ll get any clear resolution that I’m right or wrong. I don’t anticipate Scarlett waking up in a hospital bed in Pittsburgh and the “reveal” happening. I think they’ll leave it sufficiently vague. Better metaphor that way.

Feminina:

Wrinkle, eh? Well, maybe that’s why he can’t let it go.

Siiiigh. I really kind of wish they’d worked harder to not let us complete peoples’ quests without them. I mean, I forgive. First game. We talked about that. But it’s really something I regret, unintentionally getting into all this stuff without people and never getting any resolution for it as a result.

Maybe I’ll put him in heavy armor and bring him around with us some more, and it will finally come out.

Or you’ll spoil once you don’t die. Either way.

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Ah, Those Charming Murderous Raiders!

Tags

challenge level, character, Divinity: Original Sin, monsters, morality

Spoilers for Hunter’s Edge events in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Here we go again.

Ok, so, what. I got some totem from Cordelia, only to find I can’t do anything with it without activating it. I have no idea how.

So I went to the phantom forest. Hooray. Promptly died. Went the other way. Died. Surrounded by all sorts of things that are level 17 and 18. I’m still 16. Did the sneaky. Found a spirit that told me all about the good spirit, her mentor, heard about Balberith. Good! Progress! Talked to the animals I freed. Nice! More sneaky. Found the swamp. Sneaky around more monsters I couldn’t kill. Found Barberith! Talked to the spirit, learned what I had to to do to get into where I had to go. Progress! Barberith saw me. Didn’t die, because I got the “Yeah….you best run…” prompt.

Decided that I needed to kill shit and level. So went back to the place near hunter’s edge and picked gratuitous fights with a troll and some slavers and some spidery things. Won. Didn’t level. Found a statue with a scale. Put dinner and a pumpkin in it. Nothing happened.

And now here I sit, wondering what to do.

The game sure seems to WANT me to go to the phantom forest, but there’s nothing there but monsters I can’t kill.

I have open quests, but the only ones that don’t seem to involve the phantom forest are either the thread/story ones or the armory key, and I can’t find the guy that lost it. Or Cordelia’s totem.

So what do I do? I need hexagons. I’m stuck.

Feminina:

Oh man, we couldn’t find the armory key guy forever either. Turned out we were checking all the humans, and the guy who wants it is an orc. Doh. He’s in that house near the town center there, muttering to himself.

Or you could just give it to Grutilda!

I think she’d have him hanged for losing it, although we just gave it to him because…we’re nice like that, I guess?

I don’t know, the Hunter’s Edge stuff is weird because we’re kind of helping people, and kind of playing them against each other, and we don’t actually support either faction because they’re all terrible.

I think the best case scenario is they turn on each other and kill each other off. Probably we should actually be turning everyone in to Grutilda so she can hang a bunch of them.

Butch:

Oh yeah….that guy….in the house with the still, right?

Well, I think there’s a way to play them against each other. Someone, the undead guy, maybe? Was all “best to let them fight and weaken each other,” or some other game hinty thing.

But even if I do that, I’m still adrift without hexagons. What the hell do I DO??????

Or, shall I say, what do I do that I CAN do?

By the way…..

Once again, stumbled into the impossible end to a companion quest. I had Jahan with me, and…well…he said stuff…..

Have you run with him for a while? Any fights? Anything seem…off?

Feminina:

We haven’t fought much while Jahan’s been with us. A few spiders. Haven’t noticed anything odd about him so far. He fights like a wizard, which I am pretty good at, so we get along fine.

Have you talked to Jahrl about the murder of his dude and all that? That’s a thing you could…get involved with…

Also, so the end of Jahan’s quest was something you stumbled on that WASN’T Balberith? You led me to believe it was Balberith.

Butch:

Anything….like…have you had to use a resurrect on him?

Murder of his dude? Hmm. I…think? I found a dude with a horn next to him. But isn’t that the armory thing?

I certainly have to do something.

At least the fights I got into were fairly close. Fairly.

Feminina:

A resurrect…why no. Maybe I’ll get him killed on purpose next time to test it out.

The horn is not the armory dude, it’s the “all the bloodstones went missing and the two groups are blaming each other and Jahrl thinks one of the orcs murdered his dude who was supposed to be guarding them but Grutilda says he just ran off with the stones.” More or less.

Butch:

GAAAAAAAH!

Just played a ton.

Gave the armory key to the guy. He was happy. I talked to the lovers. They were happy.

And it was all short lived cuz I then gave the horn to the dude.

And…THAT happened. More than once, because I kept dying. And then it KEPT happening cuz I kept running into orcs. And I think there are still a couple left because the quest is still open.

But I won. And got mad loot. And got into the armory. And got more loot. And sold mad loot, and all that, as one does.

But you know what I didn’t do?

LEVEL that’s what. And c’mon! I KNOW I got XP this time! I HAD to have!

I JUST HAD TO! I mean, EVERYONE is dead! Grutilda was nasty! THAT SUCKED!

So now I’m back where I started. With better gear, more money, and THE SAME LEVEL.

I feel bad for the lovers. And for Hershel, who I can’t find.

But some good news: The reward for turning in the servants to the rat king was the key to the armory, and I got in anyway and they’re safe (cuz they left). And you know who made it? The silent dog and the cat! WHOO HOO!

But narrativeness:

This game spent a lot of time getting us invested in this place. Lots. We met the skeleton, the Ratcatcher, the executioner, did all the politics, there was Grutilda’s kid, there was STUFF man! We got to care about some of these characters! There were even star crossed lovers! And then the game killed the fuck out of all of them. Like, ALL of them. This didn’t seem to be avoidable, unless you just said fuck it and left.

And that, too, is a take on “sin is good.” Cuz why did this go nuts? Why did everyone die? Cuz we were trying to do the “right” thing! We told the truth! We wanted justice! We wanted to solve a murder! And we DID!

And that promptly got everyone killed. Lovers and all. We tried to make this situation work, and it just killed everyone. We should’ve just walked away. But the moment we pointed out an injustice, we destroyed everything. Everyone. Period.

Cuz I feel bad about this. I do. I kinda liked some of these characters. And now they’re dead.

AND I STILL HAVEN’T LEVELED!

Maybe I’ll go try to find the last couple of orcs.

Feminina:

Man, I’m sorry you still haven’t leveled. Sucks!

And…hm. I get what you’re saying about getting invested in that place and kind of liking some of those characters, but…hm. I found myself constantly remembering about all those characters “of course, these guys DID just murder everyone in this village.”

I mean, these are not nice people. I was actually pretty pleased when one of the factions killed the hell out of the other one (and like you, I ended up on the humans’ side, but honestly I didn’t really care). If there’s a way to pick a fight with the humans so we can murder the hell out of all of them too, I might just do it, although at the moment they’re still alive.

I mean, I did kind of like the star-crossed lovers, purely because they were star-crossed, and the humans all sounded like Sean Bean so I was naturally inclined to like them too, but they were not actually nice either. That repeated comment about how it was a waste to have killed all the women too, because now we have to depend on sheep, reminded us of that.

I wonder if maybe the whole point was to blur the line between villains and likeable characters and then forcibly remind us that these people are actually violent groups with their own agendas?

Butch:

I HAVE NO IDEA WHY I HAVEN’T LEVELED!!!!!

Was there even a way to do that? Side with the orcs?

True, true, these were bad people. But shit, I found myself even trying to save the spinebreaker.

It’s funny cuz they didn’t READ as bad people. Interesting counterpoint to our discussion yesterday (by the way, you’ve been doing just fine without a keyboard or time, blog wise) about presentation of people being important. We had no sympathy whatsoever for the disemboweler, but I did find some of these awful characters likeable.

You know, I’m sitting here pondering who I do like, or who I should like, and I notice that, objectively, this game does not have very many likeable people. Like, VERY few. If any. Arhu can’t be trusted. Zixzax either. Icara? Forget it. So who do we like? Bairdotr, I guess, but she, given half the chance, was more than ready to turn on us. Wolgraff seems ok, but he’s a thief and a scoundrel, and may turn out to be an asshole if he can talk (I haven’t figured his quest out yet, but I’m sure I’ll bumble into it soon, way before I’m ready). Jahan’s probably the biggest asshole NPC I’ve ever seen, and his quest does NOT make him more likeable.

This game is full of awful people.

We’ve even noted that we, the players, haven’t done anything particularly good. Scarlett and Roderick were patting each other on the back prematurely, for sure. Maybe we helped out Cyseal with the undead and all, but we bankrupted Silverglen, we got everyone killed in Hunter’s Edge (even the good guys, cuz I can’t find Herschel)…we suck. Shit, you’ve even left a trail of collateral damage behind you!

And, yes, sure, video game protagonists are, often, murderers and thieves and colonizers and all that, but at least they’re either rather likeable, or surrounded by likeable characters. We aren’t here, and yet we care about the characters in the game.

Hm.

Yeah, the casual horrific banter wasn’t so cool. They killed kids, for god’s sake. But…

I dunno. Maybe we judge based on both presentation and relative awfulness? Games are usually rather binary: good guys, bad guys. We don’t usually have a choice between bad guys and even worse guys, so we might be inclined to want to shoe horn the bad guys into the good guy category (or look the other way enough so we can do that) because SOMEONE has to be on that side of the scale, because games.

Maybe more than just “own agendas”…. Sinners and not. Relative sin.

But yeah ok, I see your point.

Just finished off the orcs. Ironic that the way I LEVELED was basically hanging back while mountain men did all the work. I try to actually DO something and no. But chillin’ in the back all “Hey guys! Nice work! I’ll just be here, drinkin’ a beer, tending the grill….” gets me leveled. Sigh.

But back to your point: Yeah, I thanked them, they thanked me, and then were all “well, gotta get some human blood! Good thing there are lots of hamlets to plunder!” and off they went.

Uh…thanks? For the XP? I think?

So, uh, good point. Hmmm.

At least I leveled.

Oh, and I did the bone totem thing and reunited those two undead folks. At least they were happy! I think. I hope.

Did you do that bone totem? I was intrigued by the bone totem.

Feminina:

Yeah, that was how we ended up. Just kind of chilling while the mountain men killed all the orcs. And I’m seriously inclined to go steal from them now just to provoke them so we can fight them before they raid a bunch more hamlets. Not cool, dudes.

Of course, then we’re left having to fight all of them, but if we provoke them in small groups maybe we can handle them…

Butch:

Oh, are they still there? I finished all that up by the knight’s tomb (VERY unclear that I had to follow everyone around everywhere, game. Gimme a hexagon!) and just didn’t go back there. Ah, well.

I now have, I think, five quick saves where I’m standing in the same place, because I start my sessions there, in the forest, watching a spider and a couple zombies playing nicely in their little ooze pit, and I think “I better do something else,” and then I come back there and save. Repeat.

But I think I’m out of stuff to do that isn’t fight those ooze dudes.

Companions Have Personal Lives, You Know

Tags

challenge level, combat, companions, Divinity: Original Sin, romance, story, theme

Some spoilers for Hunter’s Edge plot points in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Ok, dude, we have a very different idea of what “instant death” is. I was all “Is the temple full of instant death?” and you said “no, just charm a lot.”

Dude.

So I went down there, and a thing gargled at me, and then big statues and death. And a lot of charm failed! So I thought “Maybe I just got unlucky on the charms I’ll try again I’m dead.” So I did the “make Wolgraff invisible” thing and got by the statues that I couldn’t charm no matter what you said. That worked! And I went up some stairs and….

Instant death. Like LITERAL instant death. Not “instant death” in the “this is a really tough, unwinnable fight” sense, but “ZAP you’re dead” instant death.

Not only were you metaphorically full of it, you were literally full of it.

I think there’s some maze thing working, because sometimes I got sorta into the room and sometimes I didn’t, but, each time, instant death. Eventually. And usually quite quickly. I’m sure the “warm/chilled” shit mattered, too. And I TRIED to figure it out, but I didn’t. Too much instant death. Any hints?

So no bloggage there. Unless we want to talk about the themes of a gargling statue and instant death.

So I went shopping. Went to Sacred Stone to grab some tenebrium weapons. Forgot to check if I could actually use them because of strength and Dexterity. Sigh.

And I went and talked to the geomancer in charge of the joint, and she was all bitchy, and I didn’t fight her, and said, “Why’d I do that?” But after that, Bairdotr says “Jareth must be here, I’m so afraid for him” and then ***Wolgraff puts his hand on her shoulder and hands her a note that says “no matter what, I’ll stand by your side*** (More on that in a bit)

And then I said “Well, there won’t be much bloggage, and it WAS my duty to make bloggage happen, but, shit, I want to accomplish SOMETHING today, so I might as well kill Jareth, what me being level 15 now and here and all,” so I went to do that….

And, what do you know? Bloggage.

Because, see, somewhere I picked up a point in “obedient,” which meant that I was no longer “independent,” but I wasn’t “obedient” either. So here’s how shit went down.

Jareth did his thing, and Bairdotr got all confused. Which is fine, because she did that the last time, and I said “He’s a snake!” and she agreed. So I said that again, and she said “Source Hunter, you’ve taught me so much, but I can’t….I just can’t….” and I thought “Crap, I’m going to lose her,” but….

****Wolgraff puts his hand on her shoulder and slips her a note. She reads it and smiles at him. He smiles back.****

And she says “I’m sorry, Jareth, I’m staying.” And fight, and killing of Jareth, and she’s still with me and quest over. And the quest log didn’t have anything to say about it other than “Jareth attacked us and we prevailed.” Not “Bairdotr and Wolgraff got engaged and you’re invited” or anything.

And I was all “The fuck just happened?” So I talked to Bairdotr and Wolgraff, and neither had any new dialog options. And they didn’t say anything to each other after the fight or anything.

So…that happened. And it’s the first time any interactions between the NPCs seem to matter. I told you they were getting all flirty, or that Wolgraff was getting into her, but I sure as hell didn’t expect it to matter.

And I’d ponder themes, and I am pondering themes, but I don’t know what exactly happened. Maybe that’s a theme.

Feminina:

OMG, that’s so adorable! And confusing. But in a way, cool that they have a relationship they don’t share with you. Usually companions are all about sharing their every personal issue with you so you can advise them and stuff, and it’s kind of awesome that these two have (apparently) worked out something between themselves that they don’t feel you need to be concerned with. Interesting.

Another way of reminding us, maybe, that there’s a bigger world, or several, than our own experience of this game. Hm.

As for the instant death, dude, I’m sorry. We must have been higher level when we went there. The statues were tough for us, and if they actually hit us it was pretty much instant death, but we avoided them fairly successfully, and managed to charm one a couple of times. It turns out we suck at damaging them, but they are really good at damaging each other, so that helped a ton.

But sneaking Wolgraff past them is also good, and that…OK, when you get to the top of those steps just stop and wait for Wolgraff to notice something. Then ONLY step on the spot he notices. Repeat.

Do not attempt to loot the attractive piles of bones scattered around off the path! Those are the bones of previous adventurers who strayed, and suffered instant death.

Do it for the bit of interesting plot on the other side! Honestly, there’s no particularly exciting loot and there’s no combat, so it’s not even that important to go there from a practical standpoint, but there is a bit of plot. We’ll talk later.

We also played a bit. Got in a fight with a demon. Too bad Jahan wasn’t there.

But I looked at the summary of the original generals’ letters in the log, and one was “even though the fighting is almost over, he still craves combat,” and the other was “people tell her she’s amazing but she just wants some peace and quiet.” Also, apparently, they were going to meet at a funeral. Hm. I still don’t remember where we got those on day 6.

Butch:

Figured. That kinda sucked. I am still but level 15. I wonder if there’s a way to learn whatever the fuck language that guy was speaking (and what that plaque said). Probably. Hmm.

Dammit, Wolgraff! I kept HOPING he’d notice something! He didn’t notice anything! I’ll have to jack up his perception somehow.

Oh I figured out not to check out the bones. Or the chests. That trick is as old as Indiana Jones: Put out ornate chests to lure dudes to their death. Though I bet you could teleport the chests.

We LIKE plot! On it.

Like a big boss demon? You’re not gonna do Jahan, are you? He’s really the best NPC plotwise. Mr. O is too damn practical.

You aren’t supposed to be playing dude! You have company! Don’t finish the game! Ha.

Have you gotten into Zandilor’s house yet? Or are we both at the same point of NOT being in Zandilor’s house?

Oh wait…I have those general entries. The funeral. Maybe it’s some deal where you get entry one and two and etc. when you find your first, second etc?

Weird. Lot of weird today.

You still also only have the one cutscene, right?

Feminina:

Interesting. I definitely remember reading those letters long ago… But maybe if you didn’t find them early, they automatically update when you get the diary, or something. Meh. We have the same info, that’s the important thing.

We eventually got into Zandalor’s house. And out again. We barely survived, though. It is full of nasty traps. No spoilers, I don’t think, since people we met told us it would be. Anyway, we managed to avoid the traps enough to get a thing we needed, but we’ll have to go back and disarm them at some point. Because of reasons. And loot.

Butch:

So you can do all that without rescuing the people? Or did you kill the rat king? Cuz I want to kill the damn rat king. Fuck that guy.

And no, not spoilers. I went there to take a look at it, and yeah, certainly had that trap house kind of feel. That it did. What with all the traps and all. Figured I’d come back after rescuing dudes.

I also think I know what one needs there. A key, yes?

Feminina:

We did talk to the people, and that’s how we got into the house. Now we have to clear the house so they can hide out in it, basically. Or we could kill the rat king, but they seemed to feel that sooner or later their hiding place would be discovered, so it would be very nice if we managed to clear those traps so they could hide there. I’m not totally clear on how they figured the house would stay safe for them once it wasn’t trapped to high heaven, but hey, that’s their lookout. I just took the quest.

And then promptly abandoned it to go fight a demon. As we do.

Butch:

Oh so you found the people? I figured you either had to a) kill the rat king or b) do the thing in the torture chamber that I completely fucked up and got killed doing in order to find them. You can just find them?

So confused. That’s what I get for talking to cats.

Either way, fuck that rat king. He’s so gone.

Once I find someone to sell me another meteor strike scroll…..

Feminina:

Screw the rat king! But the people…well…you do have to go down in the dungeon there. Is that where you died horribly? We messed that up the first time too, but yeah, you have to go through there. Free the prisoners, and they’ll tell you how to find the people.

You do have to kill everyone down there in the process, though, so there’s a fair bit of fighting.

Butch:

I don’t think so, dude. Cuz the cat told me that if I got rid of the rats, she’d tell me where to go. She seemed to think it was all clear with the rats dead.

We shall see.

Yes, it was that bit of fighting that led to horrendous death.

Feminina:

Oh right. Yeah, OK, the cat might also tell you. She didn’t tell us, because we haven’t killed the rat king, but she probably could. We learned it from one of the prisoners, but there’s no reason he’d have to be the only one who knew.

Butch:

Hey, when I TRIED to free the prisoner, he was totally unhelpful. I couldn’t convince him I could keep my cover, when made HIM all “AIEE! THEY’LL KILL ME CUZ OF YOU!” to which I thought “Dude, they’re gonna kill you oh hell here they are.”

Sorry, prisoner. I’m going with the cat’s plan.

Feminina:

Go into the room at the end with the one dude sitting there, and push the button. That’s what we did. Then fight everyone.

Or go with the cat’s plan, that’s good too.

Butch:

See, that’s another difference between the way we play. I’m always “I’m not pushing that button until I have to, because it is likely something very awful will happen.” You are always “BUTTON!”

Feminina:

I am! I am always “BUTTON!!!!!”

What’s the worst that can happen? We all die horribly? Pft. We were going to do that anyway.

Butch:

LONG T SHIRT!!!!

Fine, Fine, Here’s Some Story

Tags

challenge level, combat, companions, Divinity: Original Sin, plot, theme

Spoilers for the mine location in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Well, I still think my theories are correct, but I don’t know, because I got nothing.

The kids had no school at all yesterday cuz conferences, Mrs. McP was at home, nana came over, and the end of the day was for staring into space with booze.

Not games.

And now my house is falling apart again. Sigh.

But Meatball has stay and play. I may look for Marandino.

I need a week off.

Feminina:

We played. Guess what we did.

Go on, guess! You’re going to guess “absolutely anything in the entire world except go to the mine?” and that is a very, very good guess.

However, it is wrong. We went to the mine. Yes. We did.

First we killed the spider queen, and I’ve figured out the secret to making that fight not be as hard as it was for you: be 17th level.

Because it was a piece of cake for us. Did it first try, no one died, two of us didn’t even get a scratch. AND she laid all her eggs, so it’s not like we didn’t give her a fighting chance. We didn’t have XP pop when each individual egg/spiderling died, but we did get 7850 when the queen died, so maybe that was her being worth more with the eggs and spiders included? So yeah, you were cheated. By being too smart, and not high-level enough. Sorry, man.

Then we poked around, didn’t find Maradino, but found the Immaculate who referred to himself in the third person and wanted us to find his imp slave for him and give him a bloodstone to heal himself. Refused the bloodstone (dude, you’re our mortal enemy AND a slave-holding jerk, you’re not getting treasure from us!), gained a point of Vindictive. Which, sure, that’s fair. Call me petty, but I AM a bit vindictive when it comes to people who espouse slavery and the slaughter of innocents while attempting to destroy the universe. That stone you want to heal your wounded leg with was probably crafted with the blood of some random animal or villager. You can stagger home on your own, jerkass. Or get eaten by spiders if we left any alive out here. Whichever.

Wolgraff was pleased by this, but Bairdotr said something philosophical about the virtues of forgiveness or something. Setting aside that principle of obedience NOW, are you? Not that I care–she’s welcome to express her opinion. It’s just funny that she’s disagreeing with us after that whole Jareth debacle.

Then, because we were in the area already, and in defiance of all historical precedent, we actually WENT TO THE MINE. Wolgraff sneaked in past the Death Knights, found Leandra, she teleported us all there to taunt us and disappear, and we fled the room pursued very slowly by Death Knights. Sure is convenient that those ‘unfinished’ ones aren’t nearly as fast as the ones that were chasing us down and murdering us earlier! We even took the time to loot on the way out. Picked up some mining tools and such. Those were worth good money when we sold them to the ghost in the crypt later.

So yeah, we took the Mirror of Astarte around the place, looted like mad, blew ourselves up in the crypt, found Leandra’s Spell, and made it out to the Sun Above. (Naturally, we attempted to visit the Gold Within first, but the way was blocked.) Then we called it a night.

Now we have to check back with Icara so we can NOT get a bunch of cutscenes because the end of time is under attack. Also, report back to Lawrence that the mine has collapsed. Not our fault! Witches, man.

So, a productive evening.

Go look for Maradino.

Butch:

You…..um…twin dungeons?

WOW! I guessed wrong!

God damn it. I have not had a good morning. I am angry at my house and children, and now I am angry at this spider. Dammit! I earned that XP! And instead they give it to people that don’t need it.

Grumble.

Ah…see….I did heal that guy, and told him to leave his imp alone and he attacked. I did that…well..because I was with Madora, and, when you do Madora’s bit, we can dish on whether I metagamed or not. I’m going to argue that I didn’t, but…I’m not sure.

We’ll talk. Later.

Forgiveness. Remember this.

Ok….so you met the guy in the crypt? And there was one other place there that wasn’t the big library with all the plot. What was it?

Because see, this was one of the first times that source was seen as something that wasn’t bad. That ghost dude was truly surprised that we DIDN’T like source. He really did make a good case that source was something very positive, and not at all what the source hunters (that would be us) think it is. I didn’t know what to make of that.

And…here’s an oddity…we know that Icara lied about the night of Jake’s murder. She said that Zandilor (her lover, ex lover, whatever) was there, and that HE called her there, or Leandra did, and Icara was surprised to find him in Leandra’s arms, right? But that letter showed that Icara herself was the one who told Zandilor to come to the inn where he was subsequently assaulted/saved/whatever. Which should cause us to cast some doubt on the overall accuracy of that first cutscene there. Right?

And I WANTED to go back and call Icara out on that, be all “Uh…dude? You…forgot to mention that you sent Zandilor to that whole murder thing yourself? Uh…wanna ‘splain that?” But there was no dialog option.

So am I right about all that?

What else happened in there? IT’S BEEN SO LONG SINCE I DID IT!

Feminina:

It’s unfair! I agree with you on this! Unfair, yet so true to life, that those who already have plenty of XP find it easier to get more than those who really need it.

Damn it, I picked up that letter, but I forgot to read it. So I don’t know if you’re right or not. I’ll read it next time and get back to you.

We went to the library, the high priest’s office (where we found all the good loot), and the crypt. It was interesting to hear that guy’s horrified denial of the way we perceive Source. “No, no, that’s horribly wrong! What do you do, chase down innocents healed by Source and injure them again?” or whatever.

I didn’t find him that surprising, I guess, because we’ve had some conversation with Icara where she challenged what we think we know about source, so I think we’ve been operating under the assumption that it can have a good side for a while now. But you’re right, this guy was interesting in that he didn’t seem to have any concept of it having a BAD side.

Perhaps it will turn out that we’re supposed to bring balance to the source, or something. It’s neither good nor evil, but is merely turned to good or evil ends by human designs? Hm.

What else happened there…well, I think that kind of sums it up. Talking to Leandra about her plan to bring peace to the universe by returning it to the Void, looting the library, looting the office, talking to that ghost in the crypt, dodging lava and meteors, and we’re done!

Oh, and Bairdotr, who can use tenebrium weapons, shot at one of the death knights with a tenebrium bow, but it did nothing. Possibly because she didn’t have any tenebrium arrows, or possibly because they are invulnerable to literally everything without the spell.

Butch:

Ok, dude? That was the plot point. You knew about the death knights, yadda yadda, but THAT was the damn plot point!

Hit read BEFORE you pick shit up.

How are you ahead of me????

Read the damn letter.

Except you, too, didn’t get to the golden within. And you can’t. Rat told me.

Themes!

What IS the golden within? We assumed it was, like, actual loot, but what if it wasn’t? What if it was Eden, or salvation or something? What if the thing that’s really at the “heart” of the temple isn’t for us? Or anyone, for that matter? The rat said it didn’t exist. I’m not so sure that our assumption that it’s just “gold” was accurate.

Theme 2: The library wasn’t all that interesting. We had essentially a useless library in a temple. That was destroyed. Discuss.

Theme 3: right after learning the golden within isn’t accessible, you go back “to the sun.” That’s how it was phrased. Not “to the surface,” the “sun.” I didn’t know what to make of that.

Especially as this is in stark contrast to to the last house of worship we saw: the “Abandoned [Christian] church.” This thing looked and felt far more “other,” far more like something in a fantasy game, not anything that resembled real life like that last church. I’m still pondering that, too.

None. And Icara sorta does admit that it does, even if we don’t know anything.

What’s interesting about the dude there was he was very old. He, as of long ago (or in the future, really, cuz time, but certainly not NOW) doesn’t think source has a bad side. And maybe it doesn’t! In some other timeline or different plane. But likely timeline.

Yup. Make the spell.

Oh! Helpful hint!

It’ll come as a spell book. You will likely do what I did, which was ponder who best to have it, as skill books can only be used once, right? Well, not this one. Pass it around. Everyone can use it. NPCs and all.

Feminina:

Ooh, that is a helpful hint.

And yeah, the library was surprisingly uninteresting. All those rows of books, and nothing to loot! Suggesting, perhaps, that all the good information had been lost/stolen already? Leandra (or something else) has taken everything of value from this place and made it hers?

Because the high priest’s office (suggesting religion, but also bureaucracy…’office’ sounding more like a place of business) definitely had all the good loot. Maybe she brought all the good stuff from elsewhere in the temple to that office. And then the crypt seemed relatively untouched, since the ghost didn’t even seem to really know who Leandra/the Conduit was, so maybe she didn’t think of it as having any value?

We definitely pondered the phrasing of the final mirror. As you say, “the gold within” could really be a lot of things…as could “the sun above.” We guessed that “the sun above” meant going back to the surface, but if taken literally, it could mean we were deposited into the sun itself (INSTANT DEATH). Or, less literally, it could be some presence of holy power or something, that metaphorically helps us grow and reach our full potential. “Gold within” could be a soul, as you say, or a treasure underground.

Given that the reading of “sun above” proved to be the most obvious, non-poetic one, it kind of makes sense that “gold within” is also a literal, non-poetic location of treasure, but that’s not necessarily true. Or maybe, as the rats say, it doesn’t exist.

Maybe the sequel will be all about hunting for it.

Butch:

Which, again, is interesting about the library and the office. The “bad guy” wants knowledge, which ties into “sin” itself. She doesn’t want faith.

Maybe the gold is literal….but I now know exactly how I can be right about Scarlett and there can be a sequel. I even said “HA!” at the screen.

How? Cuz I grabbed Jahan and Bairdotr and went and chatted with goblin pole. This brought forth an AMAZING amount of knowledge from Jahan, who is even more batshit than Bairdotr (indeed, he, too, spent a…long time…living with the animals and prefers them. YET MORE themeage to consider later. So much themeage…). Now, if I extend my theory (as I have) to say that Bairdotr and Jahan are ALSO nuts then…

I’ll stop here cuz you might travel with Jahan. Cuz he. Said. Stuff.

And I found the hideout!!!!! HA!!!! It’s a good day! I was exactly right about where it was! You had to listen really, really closely to what the immaculate with the broken leg you saved said last night. If you want more, I’ll give.

So I’m there. STUFF! PLOT!

And practically no XP!

Shit.

Feminina:

“You seem to be doing fine with no XP. No XP good for you? Great. Meanwhile, those weirdos haring all over creation over there, taking 6 months to make it to the mine, they clearly need all the help they can get. Pile on the experience!”

We’ll get Jahan. It’s going to be great.

At least your day got better after that inauspicious beginning of hating everything.

Butch:

I do seem to be doing fine! But there was nothing to fight to get there. Just something to find. So a level 1 character could have done it. Of course.

Man, Jahan….Has. Stuff. To. Say.

You were so very close. As per usual.

How is it you magpie and find 32198579847 worth of XP and miss the plot stuff?

Oh, I also freed some dude’s sheep and lovelorn cattle. I told them to chase their dreams. They’ll likely die.

I still hate everything.

Feminina:

I wanted to tell those animals to run for their lives, but I couldn’t find a dialogue option for it! It was just kind of “well…good luck.” They certainly died.

As is only appropriate for my personal narrative of us as the harbingers of doom.

Butch:

The chill rabbit was all “Hey..I’m gonna go my own way, man…”

I liked that rabbit.

Feminina:

Speaking of rabbits, did you talk to the rabbit in the desert who claimed to be a dragon in disguise?

“Begone, WEAKLING!!!”

Oooookay…later, rabbit. Enjoy the sand! We weren’t about to mess with that rabbit, although more because we had no good reason to than because we were filled with terror.

I mean, it might even be true that he or she was a dragon. Stranger things have happened in this game.

Well, equally strange things, anyway.

Butch:

HA! No. But he likely was a dragon.

This game does have its moments….Curious to see what Marandino has in store.

Feminina:

Yeah, it would have been funny if we decided to attack the rabbit, and then it roasted us into instant death with blazing fire breath. I hope it WAS a dragon! But I’m not going back to find out.

Oh, speaking of moments, we enjoyed the way one of the options for trying to open the door of the temple was “mellon.” Nice Tolkien reference, game. We went with the goblin chief’s name instead because…he seemed like he might have been involved? And it worked. Maybe anything we said would have worked, though?

Butch:

Nah, you just guessed right. If you destroy the bone totem, which you forgot about, it frees the undead workers, who reward you by telling you the password before they go to the hall of echoes.

Feminina:

D’oh! We did forget about that. Well, I guess those undead are stuck there for eternity. Sorry, guys.

Or let’s just imagine that the totem was destroyed in the mine collapse, shall we? I’m going to go with that.

Butch:

Let’s. They’ll be fine.

You somehow manage to kill dead people, even. Or damn them. Or something.

Feminina:

You know what, though, I actually remember talking to those dudes and seeing them go off to the hall of echoes, so we MUST have destroyed the totem! And then forgotten both the fact that we destroyed it, and the fact that the dudes told us the password.

Although come to think of it, I do remember seeing on our log “we know the password to the temple” and thinking “we know the what now?” so…we DID save them. And learned the password, which we then forgot by the time we got to the door, forcing us to make a lucky guess at something we should have known.

Well…it’s good that we saved them. Although the level of forgetfulness involved in this story is a little alarming.

We’re probably insane.

Butch:

Either that or you have a very good subconscious memory! That password was just living in there, right next to the password to our blog and your last phone number.

Or you’re insane.

Feminina:

Either one of those things is quite likely to be true.

At least those undead were freed. That and Alfie are pretty much our only actual good deeds so far.

Butch:

You ASSUME they were freed.

HA! I say to the screen.

Cuz this game slips in a lot of subtle dialog without doing anything as overt as putting Rivellon in quotes and pointing it out.

HA!

I just hope there’s a sorceress at some point.

We should talk about blood one of these days.

And sorceresses.

Feminina:

I will await learning about how right you are. Which, if we have to wait until we stop the attack on the end of time to get more plot, will probably be about half an hour before the end of the game…ah well. It’s a bit odd that they left a plot-obstructing option like that just out there in the desert where any wandering magpies could stumble across it.

I mean, the ruin could easily have been empty until you got through the mine, or something. Zixzax didn’t HAVE to be there making that announcement as soon as you see the place.

Ah well.

Butch:

Yeah, it’s pretty fascinating.

I’m so proud of me.

Or I’m crazy.

Or both.

Feminina:

Crazy people can be legitimately proud of themselves. Especially when they produce brilliant blog content on a regular basis.

Warning: Insufficient Magpie

Tags

challenge level, Divinity: Original Sin, plot, story, theme

Some minor spoilers for Sacred Stone area in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Well, played some. Explored Sacred Stone. Met a couple of elementals and laughed that one wanted to start an artisanal soap company. Decided I wasn’t ready to fight the head of the place. So I went and killed evil bulbs and fought a couple of slavers and I just got to the main temple. So no real themes.

Well, I DID get themes, but prematurely. Cuz I found Jareth! You know, who Bairdotr is looking for? And there was talking! And themes! LOTS of themes! And then there was a fight that promptly destroyed me. Like, DESTROYED me. So there was a reload and me leaving and I’ll come back and get those themes in about three or four levels. That kind of destroyed.

We’ll talk. Later. Much later.

Feminina:

Well, you did more than we did, which was pretty much nothing.

Found Jareth, eh? We heard about him being there, but didn’t actually see him. We heard he’d been there and then gone off with…you know. Person.

We didn’t get in any fights in Sacred Stone either, just pretended to be Immaculates, and wandered, chatted, shopped. You know. Did you check out the prison? We felt bad about those people, but also not sure we could beat all the guards, so again…pretended, chatted. Went away. We’ll be back, prisoners! You’ll probably all be dead by then, but maybe not.

Butch:

Kind of you not to do anything. But is something wrong? It’s the weekend, man!

I don’t know person, or who he ran off with or anything. I stumbled across him, really. It was a “So what’s over here….hey who’s that guy oh it’s you” kind of deal. Totally random stumbling. I’m kinda surprised you didn’t.

I saw the prison, but it was behind a door that was don’t touch red, and there were dudes all over the place so I didn’t go through the door. I’ll go back. I’m sure I’ll have to at some point. The whole place had a “So…level 15 yet? No? Buh-bye” vibe.

Certainly the one fight I did get into ended very poorly. And quickly.

I’ll stick to this temple. I’m almost level 14. I’ll get there tonight. Maybe.

Those prisoners will be alive. It’s how games do. Everyone waits for the PC to do much of anything. If I was a prisoner, I’d be all “Hey, we’re cool. They won’t touch us until the PC shows up damn there she is. What? You’ll come back for us? No…that’s cool….we’re good….”

Feminina:

Nah, we’re good, it was just one thing and another. Mr. O’ had a parent party to go to, then the next night the kids weren’t sleepy, etc.

 

That’s funny that you could just stumble across Jareth. I felt like we poked around that town pretty thoroughly, but I guess not. We heard he’d left with the Conduit and we figured we’d need to find them both.

And don’t worry about the locked door to the prison–there’s another entrance, off on the side there, that isn’t locked. You can just stroll right in. Also, true that the prisoners will no doubt still be there when we get back. Which reminds me we’re now level 16, and could probably think about doing that.

Maybe we’ll find Jareth this time!

Butch:

Sorta like EVERY DAMN WEEKEND OF MINE not bitter. I only get Fridays in these days. That’s when I played. Not during an actual weekend.

 

You should have another kid just to get ALL the fun you can. Ha.

I should say Jareth is near the town, not in it. It’s a serious “Wonder what’s over here” thing. I’m sure if you’ve heard about him, it’s only a matter of time before the game gives you the info, so I won’t spoil yet. But he’s damn close! And findable! Just REALLY magpie.

Feminina:

DUDE! Brilliant thought! Another kid would make our lives complete!

Maybe we get lucky and it’s twins. Can you even imagine the joy!!!!???

No. You cannot. Neither can I. That is not going to happen. The house and two squabbling children is enough fun for us, honest.

Yeah, maybe the time is right for another visit to Sacred Stone. We’ve done…some things since then. Some things that maybe will provoke some more action there.

As soon as we’re done with whatever it is we were doing days ago when we played. Exploring someplace, as one does when a game is large.

It’s not even open world! It’s just huge.

Butch:

Dude, when we went in for Meatball’s first ultrasound, we both were like “Just tell us it’s only one.” The tech was all “Don’t you want to know its gender?” “No. Just tell us there’s only one.” “Or if its healthy?” “Who cares? How many are there?” “Or if-” “LOOK IS IT FUCKING TWINS?

You’ve finally wised up.

Maybe you should return to Sacred Stone. It sure felt like a place where shit was gonna go down at some point. Not just side quest shit, either.

And well…hmm…IS it open world? Yes, there’s a lot of herding in the sense of the game really trying to talk you out of going places, or putting lots of bad baddies places, but you can ignore all that (or fight through it if you’re good), or even go in wildly different directions without ignoring all that (as we have at multiple points). Usually, we’re in different places because you’re ahead of me, but we’ve done different stuff in different orders. I mean, yes, you can’t climb (or jump sideways up) every mountain or anything, but it sure does have a lot of freedom.

Feminina:

Yeah, dude…the first one, you’re like “enh, twins would be a lot of work, but whatever, not the end of the world.”

After that, it would be pretty much the end of the world. I sure had my fingers crossed for that ultrasound with Grigio. “Definitely just one? Whew!”

Hm. That is a good question. IS it open world?

My instinct is to read it as not, because of the often-narrow strips of accessible ground in between all the rocks and things, and because of all the places you can’t go until you can defeat thus and such or find the thingamabob, but you’re right, these are tricks that open worlds employ all the time to make sure you don’t get places too soon. And we do have the option to roam around a lot and do things in different order.

Hm. I suppose we’ll have to work out exactly how we define ‘open world.’ That’s good for some discussion. If we don’t get bored and wander off.

Butch:

Well, it sure as fuck isn’t open world now.

Got into the temple, met Mangoth, yadda yadda, killed dudes.

Looted the library. It takes forever to loot a library, have you noticed?

Got stuck on the button puzzle, then figured it out with the book.

But…

Met Mangoth AGAIN and now I’m facing five level 14 dudes and I’m level 13 and there’s no way around this.

Hmm.

Much thinking. Or turning down the difficulty.

This is NOT open world.

Feminina:

Ah–Mangoth. Yes. He summons a lot of things. That was a nasty fight. We survived it, but it wasn’t pretty.

So, perhaps not open world (although you can leave), but also not a very good example of a well-planned closed world, since in that case you wouldn’t be in this fight until you were 15th level yourself.

Butch:

Yup…I’m still 13. This is the problem.

Just tried again. Nope. Wolgraff, beast that he is, killed the fire guy and two of the void supplicants, but it wasn’t enough.

Feminina:

This is a serious problem. Good hustle by Wolgraff, though!

I think we managed mostly by summoning things, but it was a long, hard fight.

Sometimes all you can do is ‘flee’ and come back later. Unless you can’t stay alive long enough to flee, which is perhaps the most serious problem of all. We almost had that happen once. Valena has a low initiative, and everyone else fled before the monsters attacked, but they got to move before I did…I had to just stand there hoping to survive long enough to have a turn so I could run for it. Then was of course too close to flee, but happily was able to turn invisible, which allowed me to move a few steps away and activate ‘flee.’

Sometimes even escaping is a process!

Butch:

But then I’ll have to come all the way back! Flee takes you to the nearest waypoint and that’s FAR.

Nope. Difficulty slider it is.

But I have one more idea….

I still think Scarlett is nuts. I think “death” is being cured. Here’s a guy who thinks death is good, it’ll take us back to a normal time. He asks her to understand and join him. “Source” is medicine and she rejects it. And the immaculates? They’re in a library. Full of knowledge, that sun stuff. Trying to pull her out of eden.

If you saw the cutscenes I’ve seen…stuff. Happens.

By the way, did you meet the ghost librarian? From the “past?”

Feminina:

Oh yes. Met the librarian.

“I can’t be bothered with the details of who’s coming in here for what” or whatever.

Random side note: I kind of love the way stacks of books are always wobbling from side to side like blades of grass in the wind, but never fall over. That’s some careful stacking!

Your points about libraries and Eden and knowledge are intriguing. But it’s not just that “death is good”–there’s a whole storyline there about how the death of lesser creatures, specifically, are good in service to the greater cause. How does this idea of sacrificing others tie into the idea that the sacrificed have been cured?

Is it just the character’s spin on the fact that people are leaving the delusion? A way to feel important, that it’s all about her/him in the end? We could read it that way if we accept that the sacrifices are leading up to this obliteration of the (delusional) world, and if we assume that to the world’s creator, obliterating the world is very personal and is therefore ‘about her/him’.

Or perhaps it’s simply that the insane PC can only explain the attempts to cure her/him by calling them an evil cult, because what other reason could anyone have?

Butch:

Well, it also goes to your idea of everything being unstuck in time. But…

Shit, I REALLY wish you knew what I knew about the end of time!!!!

I think more the second thing you said. But also, I read that Source/conduit/etc are medicine/doctors. I’ve said before that the torture racks look like hospital beds. If you’re in hospital, doctors are removing people from the hospital by curing them, right? And, if in your weird delusion, you fear that (that is, “getting cured” ruining your “world,”) you may well see it that way. These “evil” people “removing” people from your “world” and saying it’s good. These doctors/nurses/learned ones who know the “truth” are bringing them to some place where things are “normal.”

Hold this thought until you meet…someone.

And as for “obliterating the world is very personal and wants it to be about him/her,” hold that thought. We’ll talk. Later.

Feminina:

Lalalala, I don’t know anything about the end of time! Dum-de-dum-dum-dum [cheerful whistling].

But yeah, your theory could work. I do still think there’s something about the idea that people disappearing from the world are being sacrificed, rather than simply killed.

I mean, a deluded person easily could see doctors as evil beings who just wandered around killing/snatching away people–other patients could disappear in a sinister-seeming way without this specific story explanation of sacrifice. Of being removed for some particular purpose.

So if this is all a delusion, then the deluded person is likely telling this specific, sacrifice-heavy story because it has some personal meaning.

Or you’re insane. We haven’t brought up that possibility recently, but I still think it’s quite plausible.

Butch:

Well, I can be right and crazy.

T SHIRT!!!

Do you or don’t you know something? Did you learn something? Some cutscenes, some letters perchance?

Well, the people BEING sacrificed don’t seem at all happy about it. This isn’t some society that is all “The highest thing I can do is sacrificing myself to the goddess! What a blessing to be chosen!” They think they’re just being killed. I just did the whole fight where they were all “They’ll bleed us like PIGS (emphasis mine)” and said “Please! I’m not READY TO DIE (again, emphasis mine)” so many times I almost was like “Bairdotr, static cloud those idiots so they shut up.” And READY to die is loaded, too. They don’t say “I don’t want to die.”

LALALALALA I know nothing. NOTHING!

LA!

Feminina:

Ooh, that IS a T shirt!

No, sorry, we actually don’t know anything about the end of time. We’ll go back soon! Or in about 7 months.

Butch:

I know so much!

And yet, only level 13 and getting whupped. It’s a trade off.

Feminina:

Trade offs. It is the nature of life and video games.

Butch:

Well, I got one more idea. Then it’s lowering the difficulty time.

Feminina:

I respect your determination to press forward. We’ve been much more inclined to just say “hell with it, we’ll see you later big tough dudes” and run off.

As has been demonstrated by the fact that you defeated Braccus and got through the mines before us, even though we reached them both first.

Running off. It’s what we do.

Butch:

Which is why I have a narrative that makes somewhat more sense. Your game has obviously given up.

“Oh, fuck it, they’re not gonna do chapters 2, 5, and 7 through 9. Better just skip to the part with the thing.”

Feminina:

Which is great, because I love the part with the thing!

Although one could also make the argument that the narrative is supposed to be kind of jumpy (especially if the PC is insane), and you’re forcing it to make linear sense by charging ahead in places where the game is kind of telling you “go away already, man, this is too hard!”

Perhaps in the end it’s OUR game that is thematically consistent, while yours has struggled all along to impose order on a story that fundamentally doesn’t make any sense.

That’s what I’m going with, anyway.

Butch:

You do that. You do that.

Appropriate Categorization of NPCs

Tags

challenge level, combat, Divinity: Original Sin, NPCs

Some spoilers for troll encounters in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

To add insult to the injury of sick children, Mrs. McP has to be at work at seven and woke up the house at 4:30. I’m too tired to even be insane creatively.

But I did play some! Though mostly it was killing shit. I’m trying to truck my way towards the mines, which seems to entail going way the hell over to the eastern part of the map first. Right? Maybe not. Who knows? I’m over there, and there seem to be quite a few orcs. Is this right? They’re all level 12, and that’s where I am, so I guess this makes sense. I killed some orc that had orders to kill goblins, then take Silverglen or something, take the high priest’s (who I totally forgot about cuz Arhu told me to find the witch) bloodstone. So he’s got one! I dunno. I also killed a troll who wanted a toll to cross a bridge that was broken, and he told me some stuff about a troll king before he died.

So that was my night. Many, many orcs. And wishing I had Wolgraff back cuz I don’t think I’m using this Jahan dude correctly. Or staffs. I’m not very good with staffs. I’m a wand guy.

But I encountered a way that video game D&Desque games have an innate flaw that real D&D doesn’t have: It’s what we sports fans call “garbage time.” As you are not a sports fan, I shall define: “Garbage Time” is that time at the end of a game between when the result is essentially decided and the end of the game. A hockey game that’s 8-0 with six minutes to go, say. Those six minutes don’t matter. The team with eight is gonna win. It’s six minutes of Canadian dudes skating around, looking bored, waiting for the siren so everyone can go home.

In real D&D, when a fight is in garbage time, the DM can notice that and speed things along some, provided there aren’t terrible, terrible dice rolls.

A game does not. It’s code is gonna keep that last orc shaman fighting until the bitter end.

This happened a bunch last night. Lots of orcs, down to a couple, they had no chance. Like, no doubt I was gonna win. But they kept running off, healing, prolonging the inevitable. In one instance that would have been funny had I not been tired, my WHOLE PARTY was pinned behind all this fire and ooze I made, and, on the other side of death pool, ONE shaman was running around healing himself, being chased, fruitlessly, by Nick.

This wasted quite a bit of time. And, as we’ve mentioned, time is precious.

I’m not sure how to get around this, though. After all, in “real life,” that orc WOULD heal up. Or run. They never run.

Anyway, that’s what I did.

Feminina:

EXTREME INSULT!

Also, dude, Canadian guys skating around looking bored is the only reason I watch hockey! Just kidding, I don’t watch hockey.

So you killed that troll? The lonely troll who just wanted some company? And who didn’t even care about the toll, he was just asking for it because the king told him to? You monster!

That’s if you’re talking about the troll pretty much right outside of Silverglen there, who was all sad and mournful. There was also another troll later (he had some pet slugs that spit acid, or something?) for whom we felt less sympathy.

He did give us some interesting information about the king, though. We didn’t kill the first, lonely troll: Mr. O’ was all set to, but I was like “dude’s just doing his job, give him the money.” We disagreed, but I won the rock-paper-scissors argument, so I gave him the money.

The second, less-personable troll (who was equally just doing his job, but being more of a jerk about it), we did kill.

A sometimes-unfortunate aspect of this game is that you can’t ‘back out’ of conversations, and there’s generally no “I’ll get back to you” option when there’s a choice involved…you HAVE to choose one thing or the other. So you choose to either pay or fight, there’s no “actually, we don’t even need to go this way right now, let’s just head back into the city and think about it.”

Not that you would have said that, but hypothetically if at some future point there were a situation where the bridge WASN’T broken but you didn’t really need to cross it right then…you can’t just come back later when maybe you have the money, you have to either pay or fight once you’ve started the conversation.

And who’s going to just NOT start a conversation? No one, that’s who.

Anyway. Our broken-bridge troll is still alive, and our pet-slugs troll is dead. We later found a woman in Silverglen who agreed to befriend the lonely troll, but for a ton of money, so we’re not sure we care that much. We were thinking maybe he’d give us more information if we made him happy, but…money is still kind of hard to come by. We’ll see.

We killed a bunch of orcs down that way, too, so you’re on our track.

Butch:

Uh….wait….I….he was all “Troll toll” and I tried to just say “Yeah, I don’t really want to cross your bridge, it’s broken and all” and he attacked ME! I didn’t WANT to kill the guy! But yes, he had these pets that spit and I didn’t know they spit and that was a bad surprise.

Info about caves and entrances to same that aren’t of this plane? That info? Cuz that was good info.

I didn’t even have the choice to do that! I was just strolling along, minding my business, and BOOM. Automatic conversation, pressure to make a decision, me TRYING to be all “I’ll get back to you,” fight. What’s a guy to do?

Man….I hope I didn’t kill lonely troll. He didn’t SEEM lonely. He threatened to squish me like a yellow fruit. He didn’t MENTION lonely. Now I feel bad. Unless he was a jerk. In which case I don’t.

Been back to the end of time yet? Don’t dawdle! Other stuff…might happen if you do.

Feminina:

No, that wasn’t the lonely troll, that was the jerk troll that we also killed. Probably because he accosted us and wouldn’t let us leave without paying or fighting. Don’t feel bad. That guy got what was coming to him.

You must have bypassed the lonely troll somehow, but no worries, you’ll surely run into him one of these days. You’ll know him immediately because he’ll be much less jerky and more mournful. A pleasant sort, really.

We didn’t do anything, sorry. I blame Mr. O’, who was all tired from being home with the sick kid or whatever. (Virus onslaught lately.) He couldn’t handle your life, man. None of us could.

Butch:

Ah good. I don’t like killing sad trolls.

You didn’t play at all? Wimps.

I kid, I kid. You’re not wimps. I can’t handle my life either.

Feminina:

We kind of are wimps. I won’t deny it.

But yeah, sad, polite troll is one thing. Rude troll who starts talking to YOU, demanding you pay or be squashed…he’s asking to be squashed himself, and there’s no two ways about it. Even if it was his job. I mean, sometimes (a lot of times) the job of NPCs is to be killed by the PCs. Sucks to be them, but there it is. The troll king should have thought of that before he sent his guys out there, if he didn’t want them ending up dead.

Which for all we know he actually did. Maybe this is just his way of disposing of troublemakers! “Send that guy who keeps challenging my authority to demand tolls from people walking by the broken bridge. Either he’ll collect some money for me, or he’ll get killed. Win-win, really.”

Butch:

See, when he was talking, it said his name was Grumble, which means we now know Grumble is troll for “Kevin.”

Though…that raises an interesting question: Can Kevin be someone with whom you have dialog choices? Does that elevate him past general Kevin status? Even if his purpose is the same?

Pondering Kevin….

It’s tough being troll Kevin. At least he got to die with his pig dog slugs.

Feminina:

I thought about that! And decided not to call him troll-Kevin, because I figured a true Kevin has no dialogue options. I think a true Kevin is one of a mass of indistinguishable companions who exist only to attack you if they see you, and the only way to avoid killing them is to sneak past them.

With this troll, we could have avoided combat by giving him his money, plus he had information to offer in dialogue, plus he had a personality that was distinct from other trolls we’ve met (or will meet), plus he had an individual name that was different from other trolls we’ve met or will meet (even if I had forgotten that name)…so in closing, I would not classify Grumble the Troll as a Kevin.

Those orcs you ran into, who attacked without provocation (other than the admittedly provoking fact of you wandering around in their territory while they were trying to camp)? Sure. Kevins.

But if you can have a conversation with someone, I say they’re not Kevin.

That’s my take, anyway.

Butch:

Yup. They can have dialog, sure. Well, banter. We’ll call it banter. But that’s between Kevins. Only between Kevins.

Agreed.

Ah, but what about the last Orc there? Yes, I fought “Orc Ranger” and “Elite Orc Shaman” (or Nick did), but there was a named Orc woman there! With that whole silvery “level” thing indicating importance. I was expecting dialog, but no. Instant attack. But she had a name! And it wasn’t Kevin! But she acted like Kevin!

So confused.

Feminina:

I think name also equals not-Kevin, even if they don’t do anything special. A name in this case might have signified some special abilities, and is therefore important from a mechanics standpoint. Like, “Ah, Brunhilde, she has the extra poison attack and we’ll stick her in the cave fight” or whatever.

As to what is a Kevin, honestly, in this game I think it’s a bit harder to make that call than in, say, Uncharted, where you literally have just wave after wave of identical dudes with identical weapons (or at least, all picking from the same list of similar weapons). Even there, we’d draw a distinction between Kevin and, say, Tank Guy who’s got a big gun in a tank or whatever, because he’s outside the norm and there’s usually only one of him in any given fight. Tank Guy has the attack move “tank!” and everyone else just has “shoot with gun” or whatever.

Here in Divinity, even your average fight with 3 or 4 fairly run-of-the-mill enemies is going to feature people with a variety of different skills and attacks, because some are wizards, some are melee fighters, some are archers, etc. Heck, even wandering zombies are likely to have an Undead Priest with them or something. I think one could make an argument that there ARE no true Kevins in this game, that there’s simply too much variation within every combat to be able to say “that’s one of a faceless mass of bad guys.”

That’s a pretty strong stance, though, and I don’t actually support it–I think we could just as well say that in Divinity the term Kevin would encompass anyone with a generic title (undead swordsman or the like) rather than a real name, because the overall effect over dozens of fights is certainly similar to ‘faceless mass of enemies’ even if in practice they’re a lot easier to tell apart in a given battle than it is to tell apart a member of the hordes of wandering minions hired by the main villain who could show up in one fight in a game like Uncharted.

Although that’s likely also due in part to the turn-based combat–after all, identifying the snipers in Uncharted and going after them first is basically the same as identifying the wizard or the assassin in this game and going after them, and if we had the same amount of time to ponder each move, we’d probably figure out how to tell individual Uncharted Kevins apart more, or to say, “hey, that one keeps hitting and that one keeps missing, get the one with the higher dex” or whatever.

I guess I’d say we have to recognize that this game’s take on the Kevin is very much of a piece with its take on combat in general. There’s so much time involved! Take advantage of the opportunity to roll up a lot of wildly varying NPCs and toss them in there. But also, there are still going to be a lot of them that are just zombies, or skeletons, or bomb zombies, or orcs, or whatever.

Hm. Interesting question.

Butch:

Fair. This woman seemed to have a thingy that charmed dudes. I HOPE it’s a charming axe. That would rule. But Bairdotr changed rings and can’t identify things. I have to change her back.

Speaking of gear, you see my screenshots? Lovely.

But fair point. We do have the whole damn monster manual thrown at us. Kevin is usually pretty cookie cutter.

I still think the “attack on sight” thing has to figure in. That’s really Kevin’s main thing, isn’t it?

Feminina:

I have not logged in recently, so alas, have missed them. But I look forward to checking them out soon. Tonight I hope! Kids back at school and all.

A charming axe would be so fantastic. Charm is really the best (or worst, if someone does it to your Undead Nick immediately after you summon him).

I think ‘attack on sight,’ yeah, and also, ‘generic.’ Like, no special identifying characteristics that you could really pick out. Kevin gets away with everything, because in a lineup, he looks just like every other Kevin.

Butch:

Well, until someone slaughters him. It’s a wash, really.

And you’re gonna love them. Or Mr. O will.

I think this is it! But I need rings to prove it! Cuz she kept charming me and was just whacking!

Then watch: I’ll forget to repair it and lose it in a day.

Feminina:

Yeah…he’s gotten away with everything in his life up to now, which perhaps is what gives him the completely unrealistic level of confidence that is required to imagine he’s going to survive a battle with the PC. If Kevin had a lick of sense, he’d just bail, if not the second he heard the PC’s name (“Lara Croft, eh? I’m out”), then at LEAST by the time the 3rd or 4th batch of his co-Kevins turned up all murdered. (“Yeeeeeah…turns out I have an important job somewhere else not getting murdered, bye.”)

But he sticks it out to the bitter end, boosted by unwarranted high morale, never wavering, never pausing to contemplate the possibility of another way or wonder whether he might have made a bad decision back there somewhere.

Poor Kevin. We can but pity him, and then murder him to death.

Butch:

Wow. We get very articulate when we’re insane.

It does explain the motivations of Kevin. Cuz Kevin isn’t dumb! Kevin kills us, too! He is at least our equal!

Just very overconfident.

Feminina:

Kevin just isn’t prepared–CANNOT in fact be prepared–for our secret advantage: the ability to reload from the dead multiple times and, if all else fails, turn down the difficulty.

It’s not his fault. The deck is fundamentally and forever stacked against him. His fate was written long ago, in stars he can never hope to comprehend. No wonder he’s angry.

Butch:

YES!

“Phew! I won! And now…wait. Why I am back here? Why is other Kevin alive again? Why do I feel the need to repeat all the banter I said before? And HOLY CRAP SHE’S BACK! And I’m weak!”

Poor Kevin.

Feminina:

Poor Kevin. His is the real existential tragedy here.

Butch:

That may as be, but after this week so far, he has no sympathy from me.

Feminina:

True, at least he wasn’t stuck at home with sick children and professional days and early-rising wives for months on end.

“Kevin, would you like to emerge from this computer program and experience all the wonder and mystery of human life in the real world? The solidity of objects, the rush of air in your lungs, the magic of food, sleep, growing older, friendship, the love of another human, making your own choices…All you have to do is watch my kids for a couple of hours.”

“Well, gee, man, I mean, I’d really love to wanna help you, but…got a PC to try to kill, you know how it is…basically, I’m good, thanks.”

In Which We Branch Out To Marital Advice Columns

Tags

booze, challenge level, combat, Divinity: Original Sin, romance, theme

Spoilers for the twin dungeons in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

I have nothing past cats, Barons getting whupped, and panic.

Leveling really is different in this game, isn’t it? I mean, that was EASY at level 9. Easy! And that fight wasn’t even close before. I spent all this time buying scrolls, planning tactics, and really, at level 9, I didn’t need to do more planning than “I think I’ll just walk in there and kill everyone.”

And it seems pretty accurate. Level seven bad guy? Equal fight when you’re level seven. It’s rather refreshing after Horizon (and, let’s face it, that whole level thing was one of the few things that game got very wrong).

Feminina:

Man, it’s so true! The Baron utterly destroyed us at first, to the point where we didn’t even bother to run the fight again because it was so obvious he was too tough for us.

We came back later at the same level he was, and it was a fight, yeah, we weren’t just hanging out twiddling our thumbs and laughing at them (not like in the twin dungeons, which we finally did last night and which wasn’t even really a battle anymore), but in the end it wasn’t even that close.

Levels definitely mean something here. Which, yeah, I love me some Horizon, but challenge levels in that game are just whatever number someone was thinking about at the time.

“How many bagels are left? Fourteen? Sounds good…”

So yeah. Levels. And speaking of needing amulets to get past force fields, we did the twin dungeons, defeated the Mysterious Opponents, got some loot. Robbing graves again…our mamas must be so proud.

Butch:

Ah, good.

Ok, so how did that play out for you two? You basically were in one, he was in the other, you wound up fighting “each other” split screen, right?

Cuz I had to do it one at a time. So Scarlett went to one, everyone else stayed put, hit the thing, switch back and boom! A stranger!

But I took advantage of a weird quirk of this game that you aren’t dealing with. See, if you’re playing single player, and one of “you” gets into a fight and the other doesn’t, you can switch to the one that isn’t in combat which pauses combat. So Scarlett hit the thing, stranger appears, then I switched BACK to Scarlett who leisurely strolled back to where the fight was and joined in, fighting “herself” alongside Roderick. And then I did it in reverse with Roderick.

And because I did it one at a time, we did one, got the pendant, went down together, put it down, repeat.

So what did you do? Cuz I think the difference is probably themey.

Feminina:

No…we were in separate dungeons, true, but only one opponent appeared at a time. The woman showed up in my dungeon first, and Delios/Bairdotr teleported over to join me and Wolgraff, using the pyramid.

We defeated her, went down the hatch, put the pendent on the pedestal, went back up, did the same thing for the other dungeon. Nothing terribly complicated–the main thing was, as you said, that we had to push the buttons in the order of the OTHER tombstone, not the one we were looking at.

We never fought each other, although I did initially think that woman resembled Bairdotr. Wrong hair color, though.

Butch:

Nah, it was “each other.” Cuz it said you’d face “your ally,” but, no doubt, it was the other player. Roderick’s “opponent” was a female shadowblade, Scarlett’s was a male cleric. Absolutely no doubt.

And I think we both did it wrong. See, I THINK the game wanted us to fight the way I described: you on one half of the screen, him on the other, then going down independently only to meet on other sides of the same wall, pendants in hand. Being apart, fighting the “other,” then rejoining each other. You could even see through that wall to the other pedestal.

Cuz this was where I started to think maybe Scarlett and Roderick were/are the same person. Cuz it read as having to fight “yourself” only to rejoin “yourself.” Or at least it could have been read that way.

But you got a woman in your dungeon? Damn. That might undermine me, here. But did your woman have similar skills to Delios?

Feminina:

No, the woman in my dungeon was an archer, which is why I thought she might be Bairdotr. But her hair was red, and Bairdotr is blonde. I’m trying to remember if Valena has red hair, and I’m honestly not sure (in her portrait it’s dark, but her portrait is not a good likeness). Even if she does, she never uses a bow. Delios occasionally uses a crossbow, but this woman had a shortbow, so that’s not a good match either.

The man in Mr. O’s dungeon was…honestly, I’m not sure what he was, since we stunned him and killed him before he could do much of anything. It’s possible he was a wizard like me, but that doesn’t account for the female archer. Maybe he was a rogue like Wolgraff, and the game mistook the NPCs for the PCs? Doesn’t seem terribly plausible…

So I like your theory, it has some very nice theminess and the “your double will face your ally” language is very suggestive, but our experience doesn’t really support it.

It’s also true that I guess we could have ended up fighting our opponents at the same time, but that would have required us to synchronize our button pushes, and we instinctively took turns instead (because why not wait and see what happens to one of us before the other one does the same thing?).

Maybe there was MEANT to be a theme such as you describe, but it’s just not set up in such a way that it really comes together. Possibly because while it would be possible for two players to synchronize button pushes and do their fights separately, it wouldn’t be possible for one player, and so it couldn’t be a requirement of the puzzle?

I don’t know about the “your double” part, though, since our opponents didn’t work well as doubles to either of us.

Butch:

Hmm. Man, let down. I was eager for you to do that because I thought “that would’ve been so themey if I had been playing this coop,” but I guess it wasn’t. Or it missed the mark just as much.

Though an interesting wrinkle is timing. I found this early, and those strangers killed the hell out of me. Which, if you see it as “this is you” or even “this is your friend “ is themey. Not this way.

Feminina:

It really does seem like there was meant to be something there. The twin imagery, the ‘double’ and ‘ally’ references, the way the tunnel and pedestal on one side was mirrored on the other side. But whatever it was didn’t really come together for us, at least.

Butch:

We’ll see if it ties in later.

Remember, this was their first game. Not everything is gonna work.

Feminina:

It’s true. Not every idea is going to play out in all its potential glorious themage.

Butch:

But I must admit, I am a bit disappointed this one didn’t pan out. Thought for sure that it would be cool if I had just done it split screen.

I still think that Scarlett and Roderick are the same person.

All the more on the theme of self romance!

Feminina:

The self-romance is a good theme. Maybe some split personality in there too, since sometimes we disagree with each other.

Oh, speaking of nothing really, we found the ‘how to speak zombie troll’ book in the twin dungeons. So we COULD have talked to that troll, if only we’d pursued the challenges in a normal way. It IS our fault!

Butch:

It IS! I’m so gonna chat up that troll.

Maybe I’ll romance it just because.

As for disagreeing…Hmm. Go chat with Desdemona. Then chat with each other.

Feminina:

I think you should romance it.

The last thing we had a self-chat about was my thievin.’ Delios was all “I can’t help but notice you steal everything that’s nailed down,” and had the option to be either disapproving (“do you real think this behavior is appropriate for a Source Hunter?”) or supportive (“and it’s helped us out a lot, so good for you!”).

He chose to be supportive. We’re totally going to wind up romancing ourself/each other.

Given the way half the other people we run into wind up dead (including that troll), we’re going to be our only option.

Butch:

Oh dude, we’re (I’m?) so past that. Desdemona, the cat, so much LOVE man. So many chances to see ourselves reflected in the emotions of ghosts and cats. So romantic.

And yes. Usually, happy marriages are based on the fact that everyone else you know has died an untimely death.

Feminina:

Sometime we need to compile our “secrets for a happy marriage”. I mean, there’s that, there’s…I can’t remember, but I’m sure it’s come up before.

Butch:

I think it had something to with not buying a house or having more than one kid.

Feminina:

D’oh!

And now we know our relationships are doomed to eventually collapse. Well, we’ve had some good years. With any luck, we’ll at least be able to finish this game.

Butch:

Nah, we’re cool. Why? Because the best way to fix anything is booze, and we have booze.

We should start an advice column. It would be so easy.

“Dear Butch and Femmy: So my boyfriend and I were talking and–“
Us: Booze.
Writer: But I didn’t finish–
Us: Booze.
Writer: But I didn’t really ask my question–
Us. Don’t need to. Answer is booze.

We’d break the internet.

Feminina:

NICE.

Booze. We must cling to it.

Butch:

Preach it, sister.

Man, we’d be awesome giving advice.

Feminina:

People would definitely never come back.

Either their relationship problems would be totally cured, or they’d be dead of alcohol poisoning.

Just a Minor, Two-Hour Scuffle

Tags

challenge level, combat, Divinity: Original Sin, loot, mechanics

Some plot spoilers for Cyseal in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Well, did some. Mostly killed orcs and trucked towards the cave. Didn’t go in the cave.

But here’s a thing: Friday’s post mentioned our observation that levels are hard to come by. That said, levels seem to matter a hell of a lot more. Lots of games, even good ones like Horizon, it’s all “Oh. A level. Ok, in 16 more levels I can come back in do this (maybe cuz quest levels are jacked, but whatever).” This one, the difference between level six and eight is dying all the damn time and cutting through baddies like they aren’t there. I was nervous on this because, man, they were chewing me up just two levels ago, and last night was EASY.

II can’t tell how I feel about that. Lots of games, leveling up is almost background noise. There isn’t a lot of weight to it. That said, that’s ok because it’s more “realistic.” You get Aloy feeling like she’s slowly learning. She goes back later, to a place that was hard, and now it isn’t because she’s been out there learning. There isn’t an “and BOOM you can do it now” moment. However, if you are going to have “LEVEL UP!!!!!” flash across the screen, it may as well mean something. It used to. In D&D, you didn’t level for weeks, and when you did it was a big deal, like you accomplished something. This game certainly channels that feeling, which both gives XP more of a purpose, but makes it all more artificial.

So I’m torn. Again.

But, all the same, it’s taking some getting used to, this old school mentality that outleveling something by only one or two levels is a BIG difference.

Feminina:

I think in, for example, Horizon, it was less a matter of “the difference between one level and the next is very meaningful” and more a matter of skills. Because picking up a new skill COULD make a difference (though it certainly doesn’t always).

Here…you’re right, a couple of levels difference does seem to matter (the Baron of Bones and his crowd, at level 8, destroyed us at level 6 or something, but we took care of them when we were level 8 ourselves). On the other hand, I think picking up new skills also matters a lot, especially the ones you get from skillbooks, which you may need to be a certain level to use, but which aren’t directly associated with leveling.

I think it may also turn out that the difference between, say, level 13 and level 15, is not nearly as significant as the difference between 6 and 8, although we’ll have to wait and see.

But it’s true, it does make a difference here. We went over in the burning area last night, where we were roundly defeated a few levels ago, and this time we were just cleaning up: they were level 8 and we’re now 9, and they barely touched us. Though gear also matters–Wolgraff had a couple of water wands and I had magic missile doing water damage with a water staff, and man…burning monsters do not enjoy that.

Though here’s a thing we ran into…remember how in D&D if we just finished a combat but someone was bleeding, the DM (say, Mr. O’) might say “OK, we’ll stay in combat rounds until this is taken care of”? Basically, combat applies until no one is losing hit points.

Well, this game does not do that, and it’s kind of a pain. Last night, Wolgraff was on fire but alive, I was going to heal him on my turn which was coming around, and then the monster died and we went out of turn-based actions and he burned to death while I was getting my regeneration spell online.

This is not a game that’s set up for rapid-fire button action, so it kind of sucked that he was dying in real time seconds while I was working on the multi-step process of getting a spell ready — which works fine in a turn-based situation, but is not good for quick response.

Ah well. I guess we would also kind of hate it if every time someone walked into poison or something, it went into a combat round, where we all got to stand around saving action points and saying “OK, walk out of the poison, dude!”

Trade-offs.

Butch:

Very rarely did skills make much difference. Gear mattered far more, I thought. Getting to level 30 or whatever isn’t what made Frozen Wilds possible. The armor did.

Here skillbooks matter though — Boy, don’t they. I’m still not entirely sure what buffs you get when you level past the points and skills you assign, but man, there has to be something going up in all those stats I haven’t read.

The skills, I figured out, have levels themselves: novice, adept and…whatever’s after that. You need one level of whatever for novice, two for adept, etc. And you can’t get up to two (or past two) until whenever. So you can get adept skills at, like, level five or so if you put your points into geomancer or whatever and load up on that. So it’s level in the sense of skill points, but not level level. And it seems you hit a wall. Like, you can’t put ALL your points in Man at Arms or whatever. Cuz I’ve tried. I think that’s level related.

I have started paying attention to what element I’m using wandwise. Something I learned last night: You can send stuff to teammates (like healing potions) mid combat without losing action points, and if you equip something that someone else is holding (like you can out of combat), you don’t lose any more action points than you would if your character was holding it himself. Want to switch to water mid fight? Not holding the water wand? It’s cool!

Good to know.

Ah, dude that sucks with the real-time fire damage. That happened to me a couple of times. I live in fear that that will happen when I don’t have a resurrection scroll and I’ll have to do a fight I WON all over again.

Speaking of which, on the whole “leveling feeling like you accomplished something” thing, earlier I said thank GOD that monsters don’t respawn, but I noticed last night that changes the dynamic, too. Here, when you win a fight, there’s a sense of satisfaction because you know that fight is over forever. There will never be orcs here again! It was a set piece, we won, done. Hooray! Which is kind of cool. Buuuuuuuuut also not so realistic. Imagine if you could clear, say, a broadhead site and there would never, ever be broadheads there again ever. That wouldn’t really fit the world. I haven’t met a single random encounter in this game, and I’m starting to doubt that I will. And, from a “I have limited time in real life” way, I don’t miss the randits, but, then again, it does reinforce the whole “we are playing a game” thing that breaks immersion.

Hm.

Feminina:

Man, so true. That armor!

And gear is big here too, with the water wands, etc., so that certainly carries over. And there’s better armor (or robes, in my case…long, flowing robes), and more powerful weapons, and those obviously count for something in a fight.

It’s definitely true about the lack of respawning, too. Although in this case I kind of accept it because we’ve been told that the orcs/cultists/undead are a new phenomenon for Cyseal. It’s not like we’re out wandering in the wilderness where the orcs have lived for generations and yet somehow when we kill one, no other will ever walk that way again. (Or…we haven’t been told that. It’s actually quite possible the orcs did live here for generations before being driven out by humans. But that’s a more complicated backstory than we know at the moment, I think.)

It’s more like we’re rooting out camps of invaders into human lands, and they aren’t being replaced (because, I assume, the person in charge of orchestrating the invasion has run out of money or magical energy or whatever). We’ll see if it works as well in other environments where the backstory may be different.

Butch:

Man, I loved that game. I digress.

Water against fire, or fire against undead!

Though it would be pretty awesome to get a poison wand. I haven’t yet found anything really vulnerable to air or earth.

Though what’s really annoying is when I forget and heal the baddie. Do NOT zap a burning thing with a fire wand. Well, a thing that is supposed to be burning.

In this particular game I like that there aren’t respawning randits. Games like the Witcher or MEA or Fallout, randit fights were quick or you just rode the NOMAD right by them. It’s hard to avoid a fight in this game unless you want to teleport away, which would kill progress, and the fights can drag on and on. Losing four minutes to randits? Ok. Especially if I can run by. Losing 15 minutes to randits? Annoying.

Feminina:

That is definitely a thing about the turn-based combat. Even ‘little’ fights take quite a while. And as you say, this makes it a really good thing that we aren’t constantly running into randits and respawned monsters in places we already killed stuff. We’d NEVER get out of the Hinterlands! This way we can confidently go places we’ve already cleared, and work around places with fights that are too tough for us, until we can get back to them. (Hello, Baron of Bones!)

Yeah, accidentally healing the bad guy is pretty much the worst. “Take that you–DAMN IT.”

I have a poison dart spell! It’s pretty great. I also have a complementary immunity from poison spell. They go very nicely together.

Butch:

Ooo! Is that “avatar of poison?” I love that one.

Gotta be that way. Hell, even when I’m playing, I have to look at the clock and be thinking “Ok, I still have some time left, but if I hit a big fight then I don’t have as much time as I think…do I risk playing and exploring? Or will that make me late?” If I was doing that ALL THE TIME it would suck.

Man, I was snakebit by that kind of enemy-healing stupid yesterday. First, I switched Wolgraff to his dagger so he could do “lacerate,” which was nice, but then forgot I did that and the next turn hit attack, expecting wand hellfire, and he casually strolled up to the HUGE orc and pricked him. And then stood there.

Then, in the next fight, I fired a fire arrow near a bunch of dudes. Then, I picked up what I THOUGHT was a oil barrel, expecting fiery death. But no, it was a water barrel, which put out the fire, and made it so I couldn’t see anyone to use my wands.

That kind of night.

Feminina:

That’s the one! And it works retroactively, too, so if someone (Wolgraff) walks into poison, I can cast it on him and it at least stops the damage.

Ha. I shouldn’t pick on poor Wolgraff so much. Actually the last time that happened it was Delios who walked into poison.

I have done that thing! Where you mean to use a ranged attack, but forget you don’t have a ranged weapon equipped, so instead you just saunter right up to someone and kind of poke them to get their attention.

As if to say, “hey, I’m not great in melee combat and I have limited armor! Also I used all my action points walking over here! Maybe you should attack me right now.”

Some nights are like that.

Butch:

Yeah, gotta love that trick.

I don’t know, man. My Wolgraff is pretty badass. Yesterday, every single kill was either his or Bairdotr’s. Usually, Roderick heals and Scarlett dies.

I don’t know how that happened.

Feminina:

He was pretty badass last night with his water wands against those fire creatures!

My Wolgraff had a rough start, and then there are still those things like him burning to death after the fight was over (not that this was his fault), but it’s true, he doesn’t die nearly so often anymore.

He just had to grow into his skills. And I had to learn to stop walking him into poison and/or burning corpses. It’s a process.

Butch:

Plus his twirling of wands during and after fights is pretty great. And the other day he had two critical hit kills on the same thunderjump. That was pretty awesome.

And Bairdotr is a BEAST. I got her this new bow, and she destroys EVERYTHING.

Feminina:

The wand-twirling IS awesome. He’s definitely got flair. And Bairdotr’s ‘one arrow that hits everyone in the group’ trick is pretty great.

Butch:

That and charm arrows. Dear. God. I. Love. Those.

I charmed the boss orc on that beach. The BOSS! I was like “Man, the bosses are usually immune to charm but what the hell I’ll try it WHOA I CAN DO IT!”

Feminina:

YES.

We realized how amazing they are when they were turned against us. Now it’s just “Bairdotr, charm someone.” We got a boss last night too!

But even an underling is great–gives them another person to spread out the attacks.

Charm is the best. Or worst, when it’s used against you.

Going back to Wolgraff, we first realized how badass he could be when he was charmed and attacking us.

“Wait, why do you never do this much damage against THEM?”

It’s tough with a charmed companion. You don’t want to kill them, but you also don’t want them to kill you.

Butch:

I usually run away from them. But I did the same thing: “Wait…I wanna do that!”

I buy the arrows like you buy resurrection scrolls. “Yeah, yeah, nice stuff, who cares? Where the charm arrows at?”

Oh, another feature I like? Having unlimited regular arrows. I hate games with limited arrows. Hate. Them.

Except Horizon. Loved that game.

Feminina:

Seconded. Horizon can limit whatever it wants. Loved that game.

Speaking of arrows, when we were wandering through the burning area, we found some corpses, and searched them as one does, and they all had water arrows.

Which made us happy because clearly water arrows will be very useful against the burning zombies we are about to face, but also a little nervous, because they clearly didn’t do these corpses here a lot of good.

Speaking of which, did we sort of figure out what makes the difference between dead and undead…why some corpses get up and move around?

The Baron of Bones made it sound as if all the undead in the region were the result of the same power that raised him (and his pals the Ghoul That Guards the Lighthouse and the Twins Joined By Fire), so maybe that person was just passing through raising all the dead who happened to be there at the time, but people who died later weren’t affected?

Still doesn’t totally explain why some of the graves we dug up had undead and some just had piles of bones, but maybe beyond a certain level of decay, they can’t be raised? I’d buy that.

Butch:

Classic. Still don’t know why Mr. O didn’t play Horizon. But don’t encourage him.

Still, nice touch with the water arrows! Cuz people would so have those!

I’m not sure where there are still corpses….maybe they don’t meet the standards of Braccius Rex? Or maybe there wasn’t enough power in the blood stones? Evelyn did imply that these things need to be charged with real lives.

Feminina:

Good point, maybe the stones just ran out of power. I’ll buy that.

It Takes a Whole Team to Make Sense of This

Tags

challenge level, combat, Divinity: Original Sin, plot, theme

Spoilers for Cyseal-area plot points in Divinity: Original Sin

Butch:

Ok, I didn’t play past what I gave you on Friday, and this morning was a beast, so we’ll just start where we left off cuz my brain hurts.

Yeah! All of a sudden, I wasn’t doing any damage, so I checked my equipment and there’s a dagger missing and my stylish red underwear (which looks kinda hot with the magical “garment” I found).

At least, if you didn’t have it, there aren’t “arrows of gear destruction” or anything. Cuz MAN that would suck.

Anyway, that’s all I got. After you get Pet Pal, find a crab. The crab is funny.

What about you? You play?

Feminina:

I saw the crab! It was chittering at us, and I thought “I bet that crab has something to say. IF ONLY I could understand it!”

But I couldn’t, so we left.

We played. We played! Indeed, much was the playing that we did and many were our adventures, and glorious our victories, and crushing our defeats.

We found Thelyron, so…that happened. We cleared up a number of plot points and then faced a fight that completely destroyed us, so we decided to go away and come back later when we’re feeling tougher.

Good times, though. Good times. It was pretty much all about that cave on the secluded beach.

Butch:

The crab is pretty hilarious. And rather helpful!

So did you do the talking statues? Cuz that’s what I’m doing next. And did you find the sunbathing guy? Cuz he was right there, too.

But did you do the twin dungeons? No. Of course not.

Really? So Thelryon findable at level 7? Good to know. I know where I’m going after the talking statues! I think.

It’s either that or trying, once again, to kill the lord of bones, who really MUST be somewhat important.

Sigh. No twin dungeons. It’s really cool! It is!

I dunno, you kill the lord of bones? Should I do him or the Thelryon bit?

Feminina:

We didn’t kill the lord of bones. We don’t know anything about the lord of bones. Who is this lord of bones of whom you speak?

So in answer to your question, I don’t know…go after him I guess? Because there’s one thing I can tell you about the Thelyron bit, and that is that it will keep. If you go after him now you’ll just have to go back in a few levels (though at least you’ll know some stuff in the meantime). Also…I’m not sure you’ll be able to find him right now anyway, because we were following up on a lead we found in the cave.

But whether to go into the cave or chase the lord of bones? I cannot say. I wonder where we missed the lord of bones. It sounds like someone we would have heard of.

We did talk to the talking statues (which certainly explained all the previous things we’d heard from people about them). Presumably we’re now keeping an eye out for their elements, in order to free them, although I’m not sure that’s actually such a good idea since who knows what they’ll do then?

And we did meet the sunbathing guy. That was interesting. Discuss: what was your experience with the sunbathing guy? Ours was…interesting.

Butch:

Sure you do. That undead dude out behind the trap house who got mad cuz you saw his wife’s bones and all that. Who kept killing me. Trap house? West chest key? Up a big flight of stairs? Long bad guy monologue?

You met him.

Oh, I can do the cave now? Cool.

You’re feeling rather jaunty today, aren’t you?

I left him alone….but here’s the thing: He didn’t seem to…fit. Much like other things (the sword that was “made in Japan,” for example). There was just something about him that, once again, made me think “This world isn’t real. Maybe we’re crazy.”

What did you do?

Feminina:

Oh, right, that guy. Yes, of course we met him. I forgot that was what he called himself. We were just calling him “the guy behind the trap house.” Has less of a ring to it, I admit.

So. The questions of whether you can do the cave now, and what we did in our encounter with the sunbathing dude, are perhaps related. Although perhaps not because maybe we’re just blind again or the encounter was glitchy! I don’t know! I don’t want to spoil!

So…we talked to him. He said he was a retired sourceror, so I felt he fit in OK? I mean, perhaps it’s a bit anachronistic to have a retired guy who just wants to lie on the beach, given that the concept of a leisurely retirement is a largely modern one, but…I don’t know, he didn’t seem particularly out of place to us. Although we were kind of suspicious just because when does anyone actually want to just lie harmlessly on the beach? Without even wanting to kill us just a little bit?

Still, we tried leaving him alone, but were completely unable to find the cave that according to the map highlight should have been RIGHT THERE, so…

OK, you try finding the cave entrance that is RIGHT THERE next to the sunbathing guy. It’s possible we were just missing it the way we missed the tunnel that leads to this beach in the first place.

We couldn’t find it, and the guy didn’t say anything useful, and so eventually Delios stole his clothes. In retrospect, Wolgraff should probably have tried that instead and maybe he would have managed it instead of provoking a fight.

I really don’t know how much of what happened was avoidable, is the thing.

Also, I should clarify that I’m sorry, but no, as you suspected we did not get to the twin dungeons.

Butch:

Oooooooofffffff course not.

Wait.. you stole his clothes? Why? WHY?

And what cave? Evelyn’s cave is off on the beach by the Cyseal harbor, right?

Damn. I just talked to him, decided to leave him be since he wasn’t sourcing shit. I missed something big, didn’t I? Though there WAS that beach I couldn’t get to….

This game would be impossible if we weren’t comparing notes.

Feminina:

Oh man. We would never get ANYWHERE without comparing notes.

You don’t have an orange ‘important quest’ mark right next to where that guy is sunbathing? Like, 10 feet away from him and right on top of the rock wall? (A rock wall that, to our eyes, appeared impenetrable, but you know how sometimes we’re blind.)

Because we definitely had an indication on the map that we needed to check that out, and in desperation, not being able to find any way in…we stole the guy’s clothes. More to see what would happen and because we couldn’t think of anything else than because we had any big plan.

But if you’re not afraid of spoilers, here’s what happened when we took his clothes: we had to fight that guy and a small army his summoned allies, and we found something in his clothes (I guess?–this was the fight with a bunch of possible glitches where things got very confusing) that said “here’s the password” or something (it popped up in the middle of the fight so I didn’t even read it closely), and then after the battle we saw the entrance to a cave that was RIGHT THERE in the rock wall where the map marker indicated but where we hadn’t see it before.

So. I honestly don’t know if we just didn’t see it before, and thus robbed and murdered that guy for no reason, or if this guy was the harmless-looking (but actually eeeeeevil!) guardian whom we HAD to rob and murder in order to find the cave entrance.

I don’t know! I am almost as deeply confused about that whole situation as I am about the guards who wound up dead after I fled from them!

But I do know that once we found the cave entrance, we went in and discovered much very interesting plot information. So definitely check that out.

See if you can get in without stealing the guy’s clothes. There’s got to be a way to do that that makes more sense than whatever the hell happened to us.

Oh–and do try lying down on his blanket. That thing ROCKS.

Butch:

Nope. No marker. Not a thing. I have that down on the beach near the path to the big…cave thing…that’s right under the lighthouse, but up at the secluded beaches I got nada. Did you find something that led you there?

Dude, I don’t know about the cave marker. I DON’T KNOW! But I’m right there by the stones so I’ll check it out. I want to find a collar for….oh sorry…animal stuff.

HA! Cool about the blanket.

But that reminds me….the thing that made him feel off was the fact it seemed SO very much like the way people retire here. The umbrella and all.

We need more research. I’m on it.

Feminina:

Well, I THOUGHT we were following clues to get here, because I THOUGHT this was where Evelyn’s lair was supposed to be. (Under the lighthouse, on the beach on the other side…? That’s marked as ‘strange cave,’ right? We went there afterwards, when we decided we needed to explore that side of the city, but it was unrelated to this quest.)

Does this game tell you different things about Evelyn’s cave depending on how/when you find certain information?

We’re all very confused right now.

But there’s definitely a cave right by the sunbathing dude. Which you may or may not have to kill him to find. And which definitely contains much useful information and plot advancement.

I agree, the notion of retiring on the beach the way he says he has does seem unlikely for what seems to be the time period of the game, but it’s really hard to tell if something is intentionally out of place to tip us off to the fact that the whole universe is a dream, or if it’s just kind of an internal joke that the writers thought was amusing. Like ‘made in Japan’–is that a tip-off to a larger reality because it’s saying it was literally made in OUR world’s Japan, or did someone just think it was funny to say there’s a town called Japan in the game world that makes things?

I was going to say “we shall never know!” but actually we probably will know, at least, whether or not the whole world is meant to be a dream or something, so at least this is a mystery we can look forward to seeing solved. THAT’s a relief.

Butch:

Dude, I’ve had that “strange cave” marker since practically the beginning of the game. I have no idea why or how I got it. I haven’t gotten a yellow thing in forever. All I have is that, Evelyn’s house (still), Captain Grumpypants (still) and abandoned church (still). Maybe the cave is part of the orc problem? When I went up there a ways back, I was killed by orcs.

I’m gonna find this new cave, though! I will! After the statues! Or killing lord bones!

Focus…must focus….

This game is large, isn’t it? I’m still into it, though!

And, well, if you read the description of the sword, it says “Made in Japan. You have no idea where that is.” Which is just vague enough to make you wonder if it’s a joke or not. I thought it was a joke, but then you start seeing this pattern of other things that don’t quite fit…that aren’t quite right….

I need to move the Conduit along, because the idea of wanted to destroy everything that ever was in a world is what you would want to do to someone living in a delusion. The Conduit even talks to “curing” and stuff.

It’s enough to make one think.

A mystery we can look forward to seeing solved…or not. Or not in this game. Remember there’s a sequel. That’s supposed to be even better, even deeper, and even more thought provoking.

Just sayin’.

Feminina:

Good point. Perhaps we shall never know! Because maybe by the time the sequel comes out on consoles, we’ll have too many other things in our queues and we’ll never get to its thought-provoking awesomeness.

“You have no idea where that is” IS suggestive. And you’re right, the Conduit’s talk of curing could be a delusional mind’s translation of the fact that someone is actually trying to cure the delusion.

Perhaps we shall someday know!

I’m into it.

It’s large, but we did get quite a lot done over the weekend, so I don’t have the feeling of it being endless that sometimes creeps over one while playing a really huge game. It feels more that it’s big, but pieces are coming together, we’re finding some of the things that our first quests were about, we’re making progress on various fronts.

As for the Lord of Bones…yeah, now that you remind me of him, we should probably go back there because we’re probably tough enough now. But I think in terms of plot, you really want to get into that cave by the sunbathing guy, so as long as you’re over there anyway, do that first. There really is a great deal of plot there. You’re gonna love it.

Butch:

Cool! It is so ON!

After the statues.

No way we miss the sequel, dude! We’ll remember! Because they’ll re-review it when they port it to consoles, thus reminding us! Whoo hoo!

It’s just vague enough. And the vagueness doesn’t intrude too much. I mean, we haven’t gone full Lost. Yet.

Until we have to go into season land to save a well or something. Which is another big map. And there’s probably quest in Silver Glen. Have you found that? Cuz I haven’t. Or Hunter’s whatever. And there’s lots of portals back at the end of time, which we’re kinda ignoring at this time.

But yeah. Yeah. Shit’s coming together. Yeah.

Feminina:

There is that. That whole winterland and implied other seasonlands, that we’re supposed to be keeping an eye out for another way into. I haven’t seen anything like that, and when we find it, it will add some ground to cover.

We did make it to Silverglen, but Arhu met us and said “hey, great you’re here but maybe you want to focus on that Counselor Jake thing before you go exploring?” and we obediently said “fine, OK, sounds good” and turned back. Because we are very polite and well-behaved and also we thought maybe he was using game-code for “just FYI, if you go poking around here right now you will certainly meet a gruesome death.”

Butch:

Really? DAMN you played. Thus restoring the universe to balance.

A gruesome death is a possibility, that it is. Or it’s the game saying “Ok, look, you COULD go here and magpie, but really, we want to lull you into a sense of feeling like you’re progressing and shit’s coming together by letting you close out a chapter before you come here and realize HAHAHAHA YOU’RE NOT EVEN CLOSE!”

As games do.

I mean, perspective time.

What level are you? 8 or so? Cuz the guy in the end of time was hiring out level 22 guys before I even stopped scrolling.

We played MEA for, what, four months? Five? This has been a month and a half.

There’s gonna be some shit.

Feminina:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! –Games

Good point.

It could TOTALLY be doing that. Because you’re right, I think we just hit level 9, which is not a very high level.

Maybe…maybe there are sort of different planes? Like, we have to finish our major quest in Cyseal in this semi-normal human realm, and fight the Big Bad at the end, and then we find that we’ve won through into another level? Say, that’s how we get to winterland and it turns out winterland is full of outrageously deadly monsters that we could never conceive of fighting in Cyseal?

And then we do a major quest in winterland, like reuniting the wells, and to do it we have to defeat some monstrous evil that lets us get to still another plane?

Making stuff up here. But you’re absolutely right, considering our level and the potential levels that exist, there is a LOT of game left.

Butch:

When I was scrolling through the mercenaries you could hire, I kept thinking I was getting to the end of the list….and I wasn’t. And those dudes that high cost more gold than we’ve seen total, so it’s not like some “Hey, too hard? Rent this overpowered dude who will kill the boss in one hit.”

We’re not done.

Just the shit on the back of the box looks like shit that would kill us immediately.

The reviews seemed to agree that this is a 75 hour game. And we all know that we generally have to add 20-30% to whatever hourage they say it is, so this is long. Long long.

Which is fine with me. I haven’t felt any slog yet.

On the plane thing, I’ve found a reference to another season having a plane.

So we’re in for a long game.

Feminina:

All right, let’s pour a few more drinks and settle in then. We’re good for a few months! We’ve got nothing urgent on the list.

It’s perfect, really…something to keep us busy while we wait for whatever comes out next that we need to play.

Butch:

That was the plan!

And it seems to be working!

I retract what I said about the universe being in balance.

Feminina:

Yes…it does seem to be working…which means something must be about to go terribly wrong.

Butch:

Rip in spacetime!

No one will notice. Until the world ends. 

T SHIRT!!!!!!

 

There’s a Whole World Out There! (And it’s horrible, so definitely keep playing this game instead.)

Tags

challenge level, combat, Horizon Zero Dawn, monsters, robots, story, theme

Spoilers for Horizon Zero Dawn DLC, Frozen Wilds

Butch:

So I played until I said “Security measures engaged? That’s gotta be the daemonic thunderjaw Femmy hinted at yup there it is fuck that not tonight.”

Which is a lot!

So some thoughts:

So do you think Sylens IS a shaman or was just fooling them, too? If he’s not, who the hell is he? If he’s not Banuk, why did he have those blue lines? What ARE those blue lines anyway? SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!!!

Thank God Ourea and Aratuk kick ass.

But here’s something: The Yellowstone Caldera. This is a real thing, yes? Yes. A very real threat to the world, in real life, right here, today. We’ve talked on how this game doesn’t (generally) use real things from real life the way, say, Fallout does. We didn’t go through the game being all “Hey! That’s that thing! And that thing!” the way we tromped through Boston seeing everything from Fenway Park to fucking CONCORD (which I do believe is real).

Not only that, unlike Fallout, the thing that ended the world in Horizon isn’t real. There are nuclear weapons. There are not ROBOT DINOSAURS. Or deathbringers or whatever that eat dolphins. Horizon did a very thorough job at keeping real life, 2017 things OUT of the game.

Except now. Yellowstone is a real place. And, like nuclear weapons, the Caldera is a very real, very scary threat to us all, here in 2017.

And I’m not sure I like the switch. Not because I find it too upsetting or whatever, but it’s a big tonal shift. Either have a post modern world that has all sorts of reminders or don’t.

But I haven’t finished. One thing I DO like is that THIS threat to humanity (that is, the Yellowstone Caldera) is a NATURAL threat. We’ve played games that end the world with real human based threats (nuclear weapons) and things that don’t exist (TLOU), but this is the first time I’ve played anything that’s evokes a real life, natural threat. Which, contrasted to the very much man made thing that ended Horizon’s world, is neat. I do want to finish and talk on that, cuz I hope they’re making a point here that isn’t so jarring.

Feminina:

That is a lot!

The daemonic thunderjaw is gonna be great. As you say, at least Aratak and Ourea can hold their own in a fight. Even as a badass, lean, mean machine-fighting machine, I appreciated some help in that cauldron.

Which…hm. I see your point about the real-world threat seeming a bit out of place in a game heavily focused on unreal (or at least highly theoretical) threats, but I don’t know if I completely agree that this is the first time it’s come up, and as a result, I didn’t personally find it distracting.

I mean, a LOT of the data fragments you find out in the world reference pretty catastophic climate change, which is a real-world threat (in the sense that it’s a very convincing Chinese hoax, I mean–damn it, even trying to joke about our insanely stupid politics makes me want to punch something). Anyway, since present-day Wyoming is not a land of perpetual arctic chill, at least not last time I was there, I assume we actually see some of the aftermath of that change in the game world. (Presumably the destruction and reseeding of life on the planet would not by itself have altered climate patterns so dramatically, although undoubtedly it would have an atmospheric effect: the oxygen cycle and all.)

My point being, even if Aloy has not personally had to confront a lot of real-world threats in her story, the world of the game has incorporated them as a fundamental part of the backdrop from the beginning. Pollution, climate change, the Claw-back (from the brink of annihilation, presumably), the development of the ‘green’ machines that eventually led to the machines that destroyed everything: a very serious real-world environmental issue, and how humans dealt with it and wound up creating the fictional technological issue that is more immediate to our ‘day-to-day’ experience of the game, is at the heart of the story.

So it didn’t really bother me that the Yellowstone Caldera and how humans had dealt with it turned up in this side-story now. It felt more like “here’s another example of human ingenuity back in the day, that has been adapted in unexpected ways in the present.” It was also interesting to me that in this case the adapting was done by another AI, rather than by humans: it was a nice parallel to the way that the dam is now basically seen as a big mysterious musical instrument. Humans find old stuff and make use of it in ways that they value, and similarly an AI found this old facility and is making use of it in a way it values.

I guess it kind of stresses that we can’t know or control who’s going to find the things we leave behind, or what they’re going to do with them.

This is exactly why I believe in keeping boxes of spider-infested rags around the house for future generations to discover.

Oh, and re: Sylens, that’s such a good question! I don’t know–it certainly seems plausible that he was never Banuk, and just learned enough about them to fake being a shaman in order to get at their hidden knowledge. He’s dedicated enough to thread glowing blue wires through his skin to make the lie convincing, no doubt.

It seems also possible that he was originally Banuk, the way Aloy was Nora, but abandoned them when he realized he needed to go farther to find out what he wanted to know.

Sylens remains a mystery. Perhaps we will find out more in the sequel.

Butch:

I see…in my future….turning down the difficulty….

Which shouldn’t be all that bad. I did manage to chip away about a third of its health on regular difficulty, and I only died because I fell into lava, not because IT killed me. I’ll be fine. I think. I hope. Now I jinxed it.

I am VERY glad that I upgraded the storm stick thingy. That thing is awesome. That made that scorcher before in the battle previous just go away.

Though I knew I was getting tired and didn’t have a thunderjaw fight in me when I died three times on the watchers/scorcher. I learned, three times, that it’s never, ever a good idea to miss that first watcher. Take out the first watcher with one shot. Always. Three misses? Bad.

Though, on that, my companions here are good in fights. I’ll give them that. But in that watcher/scorcher fight, I FINALLY took out the first watcher all stealthy and stuff, and they must’ve thought that me firing meant “Oh it’s ON!” cuz then they just fucking charged. I was all “No! No! oh, you’re drawing fire and nothing sees me. Carry on.”

At least those two didn’t fuck up the part where we had to sneak by, like, everything.

There was a lot about climate change, that there was. But there was also a lot about how catastrophic climate change got FIXED. They made a point of mentioning real world threats (well, 2017 real world threats) only to say “Don’t worry, by the time this game gets around to destroying the world, it’ll be a whole different set of threats.” It would be like Fallout being “Well, everyone destroyed all their nuclear weapons, and there was peace and love and joy, until the twinkies mutated and wiped out civilization.” It was almost like the game was intentionally telling us to ignore current threats entirely. And now this.

But hey, yeah, why IS Yellowstone so damn cold? Hmm.

Boy, they better do more on Sylens.

Though…this also bugged me: He’s supposed to see all with her focus, right? So how come he’s not chiming in here? Like all “Knock it off, Aloy, don’t question me. I’m Lance Reddick.”

Feminina:

Well, yeah, “we totally solved that climate change thing!”, but also “we totally solved that Yellowstone thing!” So in both cases things were great(-ish) until other things happened.

I dunno, I kind of liked the reminder that the entire planet is still there doing its thing on a geologic timescale, regardless of the presence or absence of life scurrying around on the surface. Plate tectonics don’t cease to exist. Magma is still roiling around under the Earth’s mantle. That’s bigger than the machines.

And yeah, why ISN’T Sylens chiming in? I guess he was so peeved at her for heading off on this sidequest right before HADES tries to destroy the world that he’s giving her the cold shoulder. “I won’t dignify these questions about me with a comment.”

Plus, I mean, he knows perfectly well she’d ignore him if he tried to stop her from asking. “Do what you want, like you always do.” He probably doesn’t want to start an argument he can’t possibly win.

Butch:

There is that. And maybe it’ll transition into a bigger theme in a sequel that was sorta touched on in this one, which is the planet is bigger and more important than humanity. The GAIA/HADES dynamic is to save humanity, sure, but only if they get it right in a larger context, not at all costs. There are things that won’t/can’t be sacrificed for humanity. Humanity isn’t the be all end all.

The Sylens bit is another thing that makes me think that this was supposed to be after the main story concluded. Like, the battle’s over, Sylens has gone his own way (we can only assume that he isn’t getting into Aloy’s head now that he has what he wants), Aloy is off trying to get more answers, tromping off into the wilds. It just feels “after main game” to me, but maybe the powers that be figured they wouldn’t sell as many copies if it was a “you had to have finished” type of deal.

Feminina:

Yeah, you don’t want to lose the “I liked it but haven’t finished it, but this could be fun, might get me back into it” crowd.

But seriously, as we’ve discussed, this would be BRUTAL without the high tech armor, and you really don’t have the armor until quite near the end because you can’t collect all the power cells. So, in practice, people, if you want to play this, finish the main game or AT LEAST get the armor first.

I mean, they do keep throwing in load screen tips like “wear fire-resistant armor when fighting scorchers!” or whatever, so I’m sure one COULD do it with normal gear. The Carja Blazons armor is a thing.

Just not a thing I want to wear instead of this awesome high tech armor which saves my butt on a very regular basis. I am never taking it off. I’m pretty sure Aloy actually bathes in it, because you can’t be too careful.

Butch:

Blazon armor is a thing, as are resistance potions, which I always forget about until I’ve died three times. Like, I CANNOT beat a scorcher without a fire potion. THAT’S why I saved 32759578 fire kiln roots over the course of the game. Last night I was out of the potions, so I said “Oh, man, can I make one?” to find I could make, by my math, 120 of them. Seriously.

I’m good.

Feminina:

I DO remember the fire resistance potions! I have actually used so many of them that I ran out of fire kiln roots, despite collecting them for pretty much the entire main game. And of course they aren’t quite so common in the Frozen Wilds, now that I’m desperate for them.

Potions are good. Very good.

Butch:

Ah, see, there ya go. I NEVER remember them. I don’t think I’ve taken an “antidote” the whole game. I have some, but whatever.

And I remember, too! After I die three times.

But on the topic of combat and dying….

I don’t like it when this game does a “sudden onslaught of machines in a small space” fight. Not only are they tricky, they ignore the best parts of combat in this game, which are the thinking and the planning and the scanning for weakness and tracking tracks and HUNTING and stuff. The whole “AIEE! THUNDERJAW!” whack whack shoot shoot thing doesn’t have any of that, and this is two times in two sessions (cuz the rockbreaker was like that, too).

C’mon, game.

Feminina:

It’s true, they did throw a few of those at you in a short time. I mean, they were always part of the game (see: the first time we met a rockbreaker, all the cauldron end fights, etc.), and they’re fine once in a while, but it is nice to mix it up.

Maybe if we didn’t insist on doing every single thing before proceding to the end, it wouldn’t have been in such quick succession.

Butch:

Oh, indeed. It was the way I played it that brought it to mind. It was the worst thing about cauldrons, for sure. Very lame.

Feminina:

I remember being particularly annoyed because in one cauldron I spent about 10 minutes setting up traps and tripwires in advance, and then when I did the overload that let out the big machine, it ERASED THEM ALL.

Just run and shoot and whack. That’s all you can do.

Butch:

Sigh. But I want to do more!

Like change it to easy. Not proud.

But I’m getting Mrs. McP’s awful flu. Getting a fever. So it’s ok.

Feminina:

Oh, dude, yeah. Change it to easy. We have lives.

Butch:

If this fever/tired thing gets worse, might even stoop to “story.”

Feminina:

Hey, the game even says, “switch to story if you just want to focus on exploration and narrative” or whatever.

Exploration and narrative is our thing. There’s no shame in it. Especially not if playing while sick.

What’s worse: not playing because it’s too hard while sick and thus wasting precious game time, or setting it on story and continuing to play?

I know how I vote.

Butch:

Thanks, man. I knew you’d have my back.

Feminina:

I’m here for you, man. Just like you supported me when I turned down the final battle in that Witcher 3 expansion.

Friends don’t let friends miss out on enjoying precious game time.

Butch:

T SHIRT!!!!

I’ll try to get through it. Chloe awaits.