Some spoilers for Stray Gods
Feminina:
I’m sure we haven’t done anything else, so let’s keep talking about Stray Gods!
We haven’t said anything about this, but it’s interesting that the leaders of the gods decided to call themselves the Chorus, right? It’s of course fitting for a musical, but also, the chorus in Greek theater would hang out and comment on the action without taking an active role in it – we must assume that the Idols decided at some point, presumably when they went into hiding, that this was a more appropriate way for them to exist than was attempting to actually DO anything notable or godly.
So if the point of the story is that the characters need to move and grow and DO things (as we suggested yesterday), is it maybe also the point that they need to start being gods and interfering in mortal activities again?
Aphrodite says, about the war, “we thought we shouldn’t intervene: we were wrong.” (But also, Ares DID intervene, and that proved disastrous for them, so this may be a verse structure more than a logical statement.)
But Apollo says he’s lost count of how many times he thought he could help with his powers, and he only made things worse, so intervening hasn’t worked out for him.
Athena, early on, says that despite their powers, at the end of the day “we’re just people.” And man, is it ever true, in the myths, that the Greek gods were no better than most people at managing…basically anything.
Maybe the point is that these are just people (with some strange powers) and, like all people, they don’t have all the answers (even when they have access to the literal books of fate), but that shutting yourself away from the world is not a good answer in the end.
Participate in life. Try out for the band. Sing in the musical. Get out there and learn to ride the bus.
A simple message, but not an objectionable one.
Loothound:
Boy, are you sure right about the gods being just people (just really powerful ones) back in the day. Imperfect and often capricious people.
Okay, I’m totally spitballing here, but bear with me.
So, we see this story through the lens of Grace ( and we could certainly dig into the meaning of HER name here). We hear repeatedly that her ‘power’ is to elicit what already exists and influence it. Influence. The older gods had power, the ability to enact their will. This led to lots of calamities and strife, in the form of the very entertaining stories we have of their exploits. We’re not sure exactly how it happened, but they went into hiding and that stopped being true, and since then it seems like their attempts to actively use their powers end up bad. Apollo says this out loud, and Ares hooked up with the Nazis in an attempt to get back in the groove of his martial powers.
The ending we’re given sees them rejoin the world, but almost explicitly as “influencers.” In some cases in the actual, literal social media meaning of the word. They do not exert active power, they embrace the current, celebrity-oriented meaning of the word idol. So, the thing they’re meant to “do” in order to break out of their ruts and thrive, is become celebrities. To use their gifts not to cause, but to influence.
Jesus, now that I’ve started thinking this I really hate it. The great fashion, the glitz, the very affected looks and personas they all have. Are they all just analogs for the tedious self-branding that goes along with trying to be a “thing” on social media? Is the message of this game really to embrace the desperate churn of style and gloss that social media demands people to embrace in order to matter in that world? Fuck trying to live by and sustain older, enduring values and ways. Jump feet first into the faddish whirlwind of trying to make and ride the trends of the now.
Fuck, someone talk me out of this read. Please.
Feminina:
Well…wow. You are certainly not wrong about the explicit ‘influencer’ references, and the idea that they need to become celebrities, and the need for online campaigns.
I read this as at least partly self-preservation, since Grace says, at one point, “If you’re famous enough, there’s only so much that can be done to you,” which I took as being reassurance that they couldn’t be summarily kidnapped for scientific experiments. (Though it’s really only reassuring if you assume the government is above faking someone’s mysterious disappearance, or that no one was ever hounded to death by paparazzi, but let’s let that go.) So a lot of this “get your faces out there, be known, show up in the mortal world” is explicitly about being there so someone will notice if you disappear.
But definitely this ending overall could also be read as arguing that the role of gods in the modern world is to present ideas, rather than to command obedience. I think a slightly less horrifying way to think of it than yours might be that their role is like that of royal figureheads. Who are both similar to and not quite ‘influencers’ in the modern sense.
So I don’t know if that helps.
It IS said of Hermes, who is explicitly named as “a social media darling,” that “they’re not even trying,” which is kind of counter to the idea of carefully curating one’s image to appeal to a brand.
And Apollo is going to travel and be moody, and he doesn’t even like phones, so I don’t see him as consciously crafting his online persona to attract sponsors.
I agree that there’s a lot here about celebrity, but I think maybe not that specific type of celebrity.
Loothound:
Yeah, sorry. I know that mental roller coaster went bendy really fast. As I was typing it the connections just wouldn’t stop clicking, but after I sent it I realized that I was overblowing it. I still think that there are some parallels, and I could respond to some of your points on the matter, but obviously the game isn’t doing any stealth social media brainwashing.
I’m just really leery of social media (no surprise, there), and its influence is really insidious. I’ve read way too many studies and attended too many workshops on how really bad it is for people (individually and collectively) to not be. But, I know that I can’t let it become some lurking, omnipresent boogeyman in my mind. Even if the tech companies that own them are lurking, omnipresent boogeymen in our world.
So, leaving aside my crazy tirading (please do), are we ever given a clear reason as to why the idols face such dire peril from just trying to maintain the status quo? Are we told why this big change needed to happen to save them? Yes, we vaguely hear that they’re dying off, but do we get why?
Because, here’s the thing, I get that a lot of the particulars don’t line up with my read. But in stories not all details are equally relevant to seeing the “moral” of that story. I forget the exact quote, about fiction being better at speaking truth than factual accounts because it has ‘broader shoulders’ or something. Factual accounts have lots of details that essentially amount to noise when you’re trying to figure out what they ‘mean,’ which fiction doesn’t have to deal with.
So, here’s what I see when we distill this story a bit. A bunch of powerful old traditionalists full of ancient knowledge are dying out, ossifying, stagnating, whatever by trying to maintain themselves at a quiet remove from the world. Again, do we know why? Whatever the reason, the answer, apparently, is to just get out and do things, and try not to pay too much attention to the predictions of the past. Either that, or kill the last Muse (the spirit of creativity, innovation, inspiration), which would presumably really solidify their stagnation.
That the explicit answer to this is to go out and become celebrities, even for “self-preservation” (the practicality of which I am just as dubious about of as you are), bothers me. What’s going to happen if they don’t? They’re going to be snatched up and used as resources by the powers that be? Yeah, perfectly plausible. So the choice is become a celebrity (become SOMEBODY that people will care about) or become fodder for something else.
So, Apollo. This ancient being with centuries of knowledge and the gift of foresight. Is he a SOMEBODY because of those amazing, unique gifts? No. What we’re told is that he’s a big deal because of his magnificent abs. Like any beefcake model or fitness influencer. All surface. Hermes? Is Hermes famous for any of the great godly things that they are or do? Maybe, but I’m guessing that it’s for reasons a lot closer to the superficial source of Apollo’s fame. I mean, the teleporting trick is probably a neat party gimmick, but is it more than that?
These are GODS, unique and amazing (just like every person in the world is, on their own, and regardless of who or how many people notice or realize it), and from the sound of it the public treats them like just the latest stars to hit the scene. And they’re going to ride the celebrity train because if they don’t they’re just things that are going to be exploited by the machine, because they won’t matter enough to anyone for them to care when it happens. But only some of them. As you say, Apollo is just going to wander off (in my playthrough, he became head of the chorus—I guess romancing him gives him more confidence or whatever—which makes that outcome quite different), because he doesn’t want to handle it all.
Maybe that’s where some of this comes from for me. Apollo doesn’t like phones, doesn’t really like technology, and wants to just rock his earthy surfer vibe. Sure, he’s a bit mopey, but generally he seems fine. BUT he’s regularly mocked by the sassiest, most plugged in kiddo that we see in the game (the Oracle) as being out of touch. I think maybe I feel that is related to the underlying message of the game. The idols are in the plight they’re in because they’re just not getting with being part of the hyper plugged-in, gotta live your life at least partially on this really economically, psychologically, and societally problematic thing that is social media.
Butch:
Well, but see also Pan. Pan, who, let’s face it, was really the one who was the happiest all along, didn’t ride the celebrity train. He just kept on keeping on. My ending, anyway, was basically “Oh, I’m sure Pan is out there doing Pan’s thing.” JUST LIKE HE WAS ALL ALONG. He wasn’t part of the chorus, he was an outsider on Olympus. We never even see him in the office. Now, he’s not a celebrity. He was just Pan being Pan before, and he’s Pan being Pan now, and he was the idol who cracked the code of happy.
I don’t know if my Pan ended up happy, but, in my ending, all the idols who weren’t Pan (or Hecate) seemed just as unhappy and out of place as they were before. Celebrity may have “saved” them, but it seemed more out of the frying pan into the fire. The outsiders, Pan and Hermes, never really looked like they needed “saving” anyway. They seemed happy enough. And here they are, being happy still.
You mention Hermes being a social media darling without using his god powers. I think that’s intentional. I think, just like Pan is out being Pan’s usual sleazy self, Hermes is being successful being himself. Not an idol, just a dude with energy and a good smile who looks good on TikTok.
They’re out being themselves. Honest. Hecate, too, as she just wants to run her reliquary and…ahem…be with Asperion. The Chorus? They’re still kind of playing the game, and it isn’t working. Yet. What they seem to have is hope that there is something out there for them, a place they’ll finally find.
Loothound:
Yes, that’s all true. The more time I have to reflect, the less manic I am about the whole deal. Like I said, I just read too much about social media and once my brain made that connection it started to mentally snowball. It also doesn’t help that I ended my only playthrough a while ago, so I don’t remember the details that fit the preexisting narrative in my head as well as the ones that do.
Confirmation bias at its finest, ladies and gentlemen. As well informed about mental heuristics and cognitive biases as I am, I still fall prey to them a depressing amount of the time.
Feminina:
I feel like it definitely has a kind of “come into the social-media-infested real world, old fogies” message but less like “BECAUSE SOCIAL MEDIA IS THE ONLY GOD NOW” and more like “because this is a thing that exists right now and you might not like it but pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t going to make it go away.”
Heck, the game itself comes across a bit old-fogie when Grace and/or Freddie is all “we could do an online campaign!” to promote the Idols’ introduction, as if this were a hot new idea and not one of the main ways anybody promotes anything these days.
I think I would say the message is “things change and hiding away from the world is not a healthy way to deal with that,” rather than “things change and social media is the logical and perfect end point of human history so let us all embrace its glory.”
Is there social media in the story? Yeah. But I think more because it’s actually in the world, than because the story is arguing that it’s the most awesome thing ever invented. The fact that some of the Idols are still not comfortable with the modern world at the end supports this: if the story really thought getting on social media was the solution to all problems, you’d think it would have more decisively solved some of their problems.
Things change. Some of the changes are positive, and some are not. Either way, if we’re going to be alive in the world, we have to deal with it. That’s mostly my takeaway.
Loothound:
You’re definitely right. My angst about this isn’t solely social media based. As I‘ve mentioned before there are a lot of younger people where I work, and there’s sometimes this attitude that some of the older ways of doing things are bad JUST because they’re older ways. As if the highest-tech, phone and app based ways of doing things are the only ways to do them.
Older people have experience, knowledge, and perspective that is still quite valuable, and I think that gets lost a lot in the rush of the new. It’s not lost on me that the two idols who seem to have the hardest time adjusting are Athena (wisdom, a quality of age) and Apollo (foresight, another benefit of age). Of course mischief, sex, beauty, and “messenger” (I’m not quite sure how to fit that portfolio into this) feel at home in the modern world.
Feminina:
I think our culture certainly glamorizes the new, sometimes at the expense of perspective. There’s a whole trend in healthcare literature that you should never consult or cite any source over 5 years old. And yeah, we want people using the most current medical information, but a LOT of stuff that was written more than 5 years ago is still valid, and if you refuse to look at it, you could miss a lot of context, and even possibly the actually best information on a topic.
Amusingly, I just read this totally unrelated (to games) piece:
In a 2015 paper, “Does science advance one funeral at a time?” Pierre Azouley and colleagues show that when a star scientist dies, those in their network publish less, but those who had not previously collaborated with the dead scientist publish more. Dramatically, these new papers were, in this analysis, more likely to be highly cited. The authors suggest—plausibly enough—that the field, with the passing of an eminent scientist, becomes more hospitable to different ideas proposed by those who think differently than the deceased. In a subsequent publication of this paper, the same authors suggest that “the loss of a luminary provides an opportunity for fields to evolve in new directions that advance the frontier of knowledge.” – https://www.publichealthpost.org/viewpoints/innovation-spaces/
That kind of supports the idea that old ways, even if not exactly bad, may unintentionally stifle new ways that are also not bad.
I suppose, in a change-heavy culture, it’s probably human nature for young people to assume that old ways are inferior because they’re old, and for old people to assume that new ways are inferior because they’re new.
Good thing we middle-aged people are perfectly placed to discern the truth!
Loothound:
We so are. Gen Xers for the win.
That’s a really interesting study you cite, there. Makes total sense. I’m pretty okay with the fact that generational tension and the fight between old and new is just human nature. I’m pretty convinced, though, that a lot of the force amplifying this effect is generated by capitalism. How can you sell a bunch of new stuff (especially largely useless stuff) if people aren’t full of frenzied lust for new things?
Butch:
Sweet Naked Zeus I go to market basket and I come back and we’re citing studies?
I refuse to do a bibliography.
But that is a very interesting, relevant to the topic study! Because, yes, I think the game is about the world at large, not just social media. Freddie, after all, said she was teaching Athena to ride a bus, which is more “the modern world” than anything else. I think they were just adapting to the times, buses, social media and all.
Feminina:
And going back to Loothound’s question about whether we know WHY the Idols cannot continue as they have been – I didn’t see any explanation for this in any of my playthroughs, it’s just presented as fact, so this is really unclear.
However, in a lot of stories about old gods in the modern world, human belief is relevant: there’s this idea that a god with no worshippers has no real power, and so hiding (cutting yourself off from all possible worshippers) is like intentionally diminishing your own power. Maybe eventually, this will cause them to waste away entirely.
The fact that the imperfect solution we have in the end is the Idols going public and becoming known again could fit with this. Maybe they literally just need human attention to survive?
Another theory might be that they don’t necessarily need human attention, but they do need contact with the world, so cutting themselves off and living (most of them) hidden away in a single building deprives them of the energy of the earth itself. If they are naturally occurring phenomena rather than being in some sense human inventions, this could be the answer.
Either way, my impression was that it was the hiding and cutting off from the world that was actively the problem. One of the ‘trial’ songs includes a bit where Grace can appeal to Athena’s previous ability to adapt to change: “you brought them to this new world, that was a huge step and it was the right thing because it saved them, but then you just froze them in place”…so there’s the acknowledgement that we have to continue to adapt.
Another takeaway might be: Gods, like sharks, have to keep moving to live.
Butch:
I read it as belief. Persephone did say that the underworld is bustling “now that we’re back.”
There ya go.
Feminina:
I think that’s definitely a valid interpretation.
I wasn’t completely clear on this because there are a bunch of versions of Aphrodite’s song from the ritual, but it seemed like in some of them she might have been referring to mortal believers as among those who were captured/killed when Ares betrayed the Idols to the Nazis – if so, this could support the idea that they need belief.
We don’t really know what they were up to, but maybe they had a semi-secret community of gods and mortals in the mountains or something, and that was enough human attention to keep them doing all right (one of Aphrodite’s bits talks very fondly about love and family).
We’re also not at all clear on the timing of when Zeus and Poseidon wandered off and disappeared, but maybe they needed more human adoration then the ‘lesser’ deities and so they couldn’t manage with this limited amount of attention, while others could. It seems like Athena has been in charge for a long time, presumably in their absence, so it could make sense that they drifted away well before Ares got around to betraying them.
There was also that line from Eros that Ares “missed the last world-spanning war”…what were they doing during WWI that he missed it? Maybe Athena hadn’t found him yet and caused him to ‘remember’ himself? Apollo remembers coming online much earlier, didn’t he say the 15th century or something? But it sounds like Athena traveled around looking for them all, and found them at different times, so maybe Ares missed the war because he wasn’t awake yet.
There’s a lot of background that is not explained.
Loothound:
Yeah, see, that’s why I asked if we had any clarity on what their problem is. There’s a lot of RPG/fantasy novel conceptions of gods that boil down to their powers coming from human worship. Which, basically, means that gods are celebrities. They lose their powers/divinity when people stop paying attention. In which case, this ending basically is a return for them, more than a new thing. They just needed to figure out a new way to capitalize on human attention.
Play First. Talk Later. 